Episode 153: Interview with Murray St. Pitching Coach Steve Adkins

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[00:01:10] Speaker B: Welcome to this week's edition of the Dugout Dish podcast. I'm Andy Kira Kitties, joined by my Wonderful Co host, Mr. Keith Glasser. How are we doing? [00:01:18] Speaker A: Great. How are you? [00:01:19] Speaker B: Got a guest on today, pretty excited about this one. So I'm going to kick it over to you for the intro here. [00:01:25] Speaker A: You didn't, you didn't tell me how you are you doing? [00:01:27] Speaker B: I'm good. I'm great. I'm fantastic. We chopped it up before the pod here. I'm looking forward to this conversation. It's going to be a good one. No pressure. [00:01:34] Speaker A: You just glossed over the question of me asking you how you were doing. [00:01:39] Speaker B: I'm excited. Sorry, I gotta pump the brakes. [00:01:42] Speaker C: Sure. [00:01:43] Speaker A: Pull the reins back a little bit. [00:01:46] Speaker B: Am I. [00:01:47] Speaker A: Are you ready for the intro? [00:01:48] Speaker B: Yeah, let's do it. All right. All right. [00:01:51] Speaker A: Today we're joined by another coach Rossi disciple. So I think that upstart number to 11, I think it was the hook, line and sinker that got him on with us. But tonight we're joined by Steve Atkins, the assistant coach at Murray State, one of the guys behind the best pitching staffs in the Missouri Valley. Steve helped develop multiple all conference arms. Coach pro guys played a big role in Murray State's run to the College World Series last year that we'll probably get into. Super exciting to watch, but he's been around college baseball a lot of different at a lot of different levels, understands how to build and develop pitchers. We're excited to talk pitching development and anything else that would comes across our minds tonight on this podcast. So, Steve, thanks for joining us tonight. Dude, I'M super excited to have you on the podcast. [00:02:32] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm really excited to be on, guys. I've watched, I've watched your podcast from time to time over the last several years and I've always enjoyed it. So big fan of both of you guys. Thanks for having me on. [00:02:44] Speaker A: Of course. Before we get going, if you take just a couple minutes, give the listeners a rundown of how you have gotten to be the pitching coach at Murray State. [00:02:54] Speaker C: Yes. So I am, I'm from the Chicago suburbs originally. That's where I grew up. I played at Bradley University in Peoria, Illinois and kind of had a okay career but kind of injury plagued and you know, fell short of doing what I wanted to do, which was play professionally. So career ended and got right into coaching. My first coaching job was at Division 2 Southwest Baptist in Southwest Missouri. So I was 23 or 24 and had the reins on a pitching coach for the, for the first time and had no idea what I was doing and failed and learned. And then I got hired at Siena then. So I was at Siena for three years. That's. We could probably do several episodes of a podcast of all the stories and oddities and, you know, things we learned there at Siena working for coach. But I was there for three years and then I coached at Fair Dickinson with Rob. With Rob Datoma 2019 through 2021 and then I spent one year at UMass coaching with Matt Reynolds and then the fall of 2023, 2022. Fall of 2022 was my first fall here at Murray State. So I'm going on my fourth year here at Murray State and love, love my time on the east coast and I miss it in a lot of ways. A lot of the people and cool community. I love living out there. But I played in the Missouri Valley and this was a cool opportunity for me to get back into the Missouri Valley Conference and a conference that I wanted to coach in. And so it's, it's going pretty well here. I've enjoyed it. [00:04:44] Speaker B: Well, I would say the recent results would, would suggest that at least the, the past season was, was quite the success. What we talked about it for a minute before we get into some of the questions. We got to cover this just because it's just a such an awesome, awesome story. I'm sure it was an incredible experience. But what was that like, man? Like, obviously you guys were talented. Like anybody who watched knew that you guys were talented. But the thing that stuck out to me was your guys just weren't phased by anything. [00:05:15] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. Well, it was an awesome experience. Just, I mean, that, you know, you. You get to Omaha, they. They roll the red carpet out for you, and just the experience for the players and everything is. I mean, it's. You know, it's obviously something you'll never forget, but, yeah, just getting there, it was. It was cool because it was a. It was a really cool collection of players that were, you know, experienced, tough, really confident, and kind of everybody started playing their best baseball down the stretch, you know, about halfway through the season, and things were really rolling for us. But, yeah, I think we kind of. We've had the. I would say, the culture and the foundation of having pretty tough, pretty resilient kids, and that's kind of been a pillar of our program for a while, and I think it finally was, you know, able to be showcased. You know, we were in the spotlight and had some of that stuff, you know, kind of be seen by the public for the first time and in a pretty cool way. So, yeah, it was. It was an awesome run and obviously, something I'll never forget. [00:06:23] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you talk about that toughness and, like, having resilient kids, I'm sure that doesn't happen by mistake. How do you identify those kind of traits in the recruiting process? Like, is there anything that clues you into it? As. I mean, obviously, you guys have a culture built, and to a certain extent, guys need to assimilate into that, but I'm sure it's something. You guys look for, anything that clues you off, that a guy's gonna be a fit for you, for sure. [00:06:52] Speaker C: And, yeah, no question about it. We. We seek that out. And it is an. It's an enormous part of. Of kind of the preliminary step, I think, in my opinion, on how we decide to go after a recruit. And I think it's. It's a multitude of things. I think it's looking at, you know, actually being able to. To watch them play the game and. And respond to adversity and, you know, not just having some physical toughness to them, but. But some emotional toughness as well. And I think you're able to see that the more that you see them get abs and play the field and. And pitch innings and, you know, overcome adversity, that. That happens to you throughout the game. But also, I think we. We try to. To really do our homework with people that know them best. I mean, I. I think you can get led astray by a high school coach or a travel coach or a friend or whoever from time to time. But you know, you have those relationships as a college recruiting coordinator with people that you trust. And I think probably that's probably, in my opinion, that's one of the things that, you know, I look back on my career and where I probably have grown the most as a recruiter is I've really sunk my teeth in on. On making the extra phone call to people that know that player best and trying to find out a little bit of what their upbringing is like and what kind of kid they are and ask some of those tough questions and flat out trying to get to the bottom. Is this kid a tough kid? Is he resilient? Is he going to fit in in an environment where he gets pushed pretty hard? And is he going to be able to bounce back when things don't necessarily go his way? You know? [00:08:33] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a. It's a tough puzzle to put together at times. And I think if, I mean, to your point, like, all you can really do is do as much homework as you can. And we try to impress upon people who listen to this that that's an important factor for pretty much every coach that we've had on here is like, can you, can you peel back that onion to where you can really understand, is this kid going to be able to compete at the level we need them to compete at? Right. And everybody's got slightly different criteria for that. But I think at the end of the day, like, bare minimum, can you handle the day to day of being a Division 1 athlete or Division 2 or Division 3 athlete? Can you? You know, we're going to get into this a little bit later, I'm sure, but just the day to day is. Can be daunting. It's just more than anybody's ever asked you to do. And if you get an idea that a kid's got it, I'm sure it makes that transition a lot easier and probably more fun for you to coach. [00:09:27] Speaker C: Yeah, 100%. I think it's a lot of it is the, like, the consistency of being able to bring it and be your best every single day or as. As many days consecutively as you can. And that's something that you, you probably don't really get that much of a taste of as a high school or a travel ball guy, you know, before you get to baseball at the college level. It's something you learn how to do. But if you have some of those traits already, you know, I think that's where you can kind of take a peek at, like, is he taking care of, you know, his Grades in the classroom. Is he, you know, balancing things outside of baseball? Well, you know, because I think that speaks to like a guy's consistency in him being able to show up and be his best every day. You know, again, that's, that's. I, I don't expect 18 year olds to, to, to have that maturity, you know, most of the time, but I think, I think a lot of it's learned. But there are some things that kind of give you a little peek into. Can they handle that, bringing that, that kind of juice and that energy and that attitude that you need every day? [00:10:38] Speaker A: Yeah, it's hard. Andy and I talk about it all the time that you're not on this podcast. But like, you don't as a freshman going into college to play baseball. You've never gone through a season that you were about to undergo, right? You're going to be like, even in the fall, you show up at Murray State, you show up at Marist, you show up at Bradley, you're practicing. What do you get now? 30, 42 days in the fall or in and around, we'll call it. But you're still going six days a week for six, seven, you know, eight weeks, we'll call it. Just for math's sake. Like, you're lifting probably three, four times a week. You're going to be inner squatting and then you go into individuals where you're still going to be lifting. It runs all the way up to Thanksgiving. And then you're going to have a month off where you come back and you're going to start up in mid January and with small group individuals and then practice. And then, oh, by the way, you open up in three, two weeks. Three weeks. And then you were playing 56 games from February, mid February, all the way through May. And that's, that's travel, that's nutrition. Like, and you still have to go to class through all of this. You don't just get to play baseball as much as you, we would like to, you know, but it's a lot like it's six days a week. And you know, Andy's like, say this all the time. We're like a good portion of kids. Even if you were in the, the top percent of, of high school kids, you're probably just doing the bare minimum of what's going to be asked of you when you get to college. And I, I agree with you. I think you're 100, right? It's learned behavior once they get there because it's, it's kind of sink or swim. And. But you can clue in on, like, do. Am I gonna have to babysit in the classroom? Because if I have to babysit them in the classroom, I. That's. I don't know if that headache is what I want. And. But there's all those things along the recruiting trail that kind of clue you into those things, and I just think it's. We beat this dead horse quite a bit on here, but it's so true, and I'm glad that so many people bring it up about how, like, it's difficult to. To bring it every day. It is. And I think sometimes, like, I used to get frustrated, I think, as a coach sometimes, because it's like, well, I'm bringing it every day. Why can't everyone else? And you kind of got to pull the reins back a little. Like, this is my job. This is what I'm. Like, this is what I have to do. Like, you know, when I'm at RPI, like, I don't know that I just. You know, 15 of my guys just got dominated in thermals and fluids midterm, and they probably got, like, a 20 on it. So, you know, they're a little downtrodden because all of a sudden, their GPA just took a hit or they don't know if they're gonna make it, you know, and there's a lot more that goes on in kids in their minds. But I think that, like, you know, you're 100, right? Is how. Like, how often can you show up to. To be the best that you can be? Every day. And over the long run, it's gonna. Ultimately, you know, the more you can do it, the. You're gonna put yourself in a better position to see the field, have playing time, have success, and ultimately have a really good career. [00:13:44] Speaker C: Yeah. Couldn't agree more. Yeah. [00:13:49] Speaker B: All right. From an evaluation and a recruiting perspective, I want to kind of stick to the pitch inside, because that's what you do. That's what you're really good at when you are starting to recruit an arm. What are some of the things that. Like, what's your checklist of stuff from an evaluation perspective that you value in this process and things that help you decide whether a guy is going to be a fit for you and your staff? [00:14:20] Speaker C: Yeah, I think I'll try to be succinct. I think there's several avenues to go down here. One, I think, you know, we do recruit a lot of junior college guys. It probably makes up half of our roster on any given year, at least. And I think when you're recruiting junior college guys, you definitely are looking for a, a proven history of being able to get people out at a certain clip, right? Throw strikes at a certain clip, limit walks at a certain clip, miss barrels, strike people, you know, and, and I think that's something you obviously are missing, you know, or, or you have at least more of an unclear picture when you're recruiting a high school guy, right, because there's, there's more of a variation in the level of, of talent that they're facing in the batter's box. But at least that's where we're starting, you know, with, with junior college guys and then, you know, from there with high school guys and junior college guys, there's definitely a level of stuff that, that, that number one has to be there, you know, before we go down any sort of road. And I think it isn't necessarily fastball velocity at the top of that list, although that is, you know, something that we key in on. But I would, I would classify it more as how does their fastball play, you know, because I think there are oddities that you can find and you know, the way that their ball spins, the angle it comes in at, how, what are the batted ball results that you're getting, you know, with your fastball. And I think, you know, this is, we were talking before, before we started a little bit on just some of the changes that have occurred since we started coaching and you know, the number of things in the recruiting process that have changed, you know, in the last 10 years plus, it's just, it's kind of astounding. But I used to be more of the mindset of, let me, let me make sure a guy has fastball command, has some fastball velocity, and he has one off speed pitch type that shows some promise that we could probably get some swing and miss on. And while I think that's still really important, you know, I think you do have to, you have to have, you know, at a basic level an off speed pitch type that we can forecast as this is something where he'll be able to generate swing and miss with. I've, I've, I think pitching has evolved, you know, in, in just 10 years here. I think having a deeper arsenal is, is so much more important than something that I'm looking at more nowadays. Now, do I need a, a high school arm to have four or five pitch mix? No, not necessarily. But if a guy has a changeup, if he has a breaking ball, if he has pitch shapes going in different directions, and he's commanding his fastball in different parts of the zone. That is a huge, huge plus and something that, that's kind of where, where we'll start sometimes. Now we've recruited plenty of guys where maybe the change up isn't there. It's, it's really, really green. They've got other intangibles, you know, on the mound. But how does the fastball play? Do we have an off speed pitch type that's generating swing and miss metrically? It, you know, it's, it's going to carry over into this level of baseball and continue to generate swing and miss. And then from there I think it's, hey, what's, what's the makeup of the body and the physical composite, you know, composition of the kid? Is he projectable? You know, and then there's actual pitching, you know, intangibles involved. What's his body language like? Is he actually getting people out? Is he out there, like trying to win a game for his team? Or is he just up there lifting his leg and chucking that thing? You know, there's just, there's, you know, all of those things. It's not like we have to check all five of those things before we start getting in on a kid. You know, there's, there's different scales. If the fastball is playing exceptionally well and some of the other things are missing, maybe we'll be okay with that. We'll go down that road, you know, or if, if that slider is spinning at 2800 and it doesn't look like anybody has a prayer of making contact with it. But there's other pieces of his game that are lacking. Well, maybe we'll still go down that road and, you know, start to think about how can we develop the other areas of his game that, that need to get up to that level of where that particular pitch type is at. So definitely a level of stuff I would say is where we start. And I think from there I do want to be able to see that a kid wants to go out there and pitch to win a game, has some toughness. And I think at the end of the day, we can't lose sight of the fact that we have to be able to command the baseball and be in the strike zone at a high enough clip because we've all coached pitchers where, you know, there's something that's shiny that they can do. And then we bring them in and we have a really tough time helping them find the strike zone. And it never turns into something where we can put them out there in a game all that often. [00:19:35] Speaker B: Yeah, the fastball profile is something that I've, I have personally been educated by some guys on because I think before we had all this awesome data, you could see things with your eyes, but you couldn't really quantify it. Like you could see the guy who was 89 but got a bunch of swing and miss at the top of the zone and you're kind of like, well, why is that happening? Like now we can quantify it all. And that's such an interesting puzzle to unpack. And I think it's an important thing for people to understand that to your point, it's not just velocity, there's other pieces to that, specifically the fastball puzzle that clue you in that this is going to be a fastball that can be effective. Whether it's because we've all seen the guys who are 93, 94 and they can't get anybody to swing a mass. And then you see the guy who's maybe a little bit lighter velocity, but there's something going on there either with his approach angle or his release height and the combination of things that, that make it really difficult. Just I'm assuming having all the data that you have helps you really zone in on that. [00:20:38] Speaker C: It does, it does. And I think, you know, there's, there's certainly times where, you know, we might go see somebody, whether it's a junior college arm or, or a high school arm at a tournament. And we don't necessarily have that data, but we try to fill in the pieces. You know, is it the end all, be all? No, but I think before we're making a decision on, you know, making an offer, we're going to be pretty comfortable with knowing consistently what his ball flight data is. Consistently, you know. [00:21:09] Speaker B: Yeah, you. The other thing you mentioned was kind of these outlier traits, like a guy who can really spin it, maybe a guy who has kind of an electric fastball, but some of the other stuff is behind. So this is kind of a two part one. Which pieces of the pitching puzzle do you feel like you have had success developing when they get to campus? And then the second part would be, do you try to profile guys as to how they might be able to help the program right away versus like a guy who can really spin the ball, like maybe he's a bullpen guy. That. Is that how you view it or are you just looking more? I want to get as many good arms here and we can figure it out when we get here. [00:21:51] Speaker C: Mostly the Latter. Right. Like, I think you're, you're mostly just trying to stockpile all of those things that, you know, are a successful formula for a college pitcher. And then I think from there there are ways where, you know, and maybe we go after this guy instead of this guy when they're pretty close because he does a little bit more of this and we're lacking this, you know, like, we just, you know, my boss and I just had a conversation about a pitcher that we're going after where I think he has something in his arsenal that, you know, after our, you know, the turnover and the graduation that we have this year, the guys that we have coming in, I think he has something that some of our incoming recruits don't necessarily have, you know, in his arsenal. And I think, you know, I think there's probably a lot of pitching coaches and recruiting coordinators that think this way. I know we place a huge importance in it. We're trying to get a really wide variety of unique angles and spin and shapes. We're trying to create as much variety on our pitching staff, you know, while still understanding we're not just going to add a left handed submarine arm just because he throws from that angle. They have to be able to do, you know, all the things that we just discussed. But the more variety we can get, the better off we are. Because you're facing a team in a weekend series with how much data, with how, in my opinion, with how good coaching is nowadays. You know, I, I think I, I see head coaches, hitting coaches really teach an approach and what pitches to sit on and what counts and where to drive certain pitches, you know, based on how they're attacking you. I, I see that happening really, really well. And it's, it's so much harder to do that when you can just bring in stuff that looks so different to the hitter's eye from inning to inning or from, you know, twice through the lineup. Boom. We're going to give you a different look here. So we, we value that for sure. [00:24:00] Speaker B: From, from a development perspective, what do you feel? People are on the fence on this. Like, guys who can. You teach guys to throw strikes, can you not? But are there any times where you feel like, all right, this kid's changeup's a little bit raw, like, that's something I feel good about developing. Like, how does that look for you when you get into the evaluation process where you try to do that projection piece of like, all right, this is what I think this guy can be. [00:24:26] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. Well, I think we've had success at developing all areas, but if I had to really pick, I think it's, it's being able to take a guy's breaking ball that might just be, hey, this is a strike pitch right now. And being able to turn it into a pitch that's going to generate bad swing decisions and miss barrels, I know that's something that I have confidence in myself to be able to help guys do that. And I think the way that you go about that, there's a variety of different ways and it depends on who they are, what their arsenal is. And it's funny because I think. [00:25:07] Speaker B: I. [00:25:07] Speaker C: Don'T know that I would have ever said this was an enormous strength of mine prior. But I think we've found a little bit of a niche here at Murray State where we have been able to recruit a transfer occasionally from another four year school, a junior college guy who it's proven that they've got stuff, they have the ability to make you swing and miss. And if we can just get them to pitch efficiently and be in the strike zone at a high enough clip, this guy's going to be untouchable and he'll be able to pitch a lot for us. And I think we've been able to do that a little bit. And again, the ways that you go about doing that, the mental game, helping a guy refine his sequencing and rely and be able to attack hitters in a way that's going to help him get in the zone at a higher clip, certainly being able to break down the delivery and mechanically help him get, you know, more linear or whatever you need him to do. There's all sorts of ways to do that. But that is something that I think it's, it's been a successful formula for us at least. Hey, this is a guy with great stuff didn't get to pitch at, you know, school blank because he wasn't in the strike zone enough. We'll take them all, see if we can get him in the zone. And it's worked out sometimes for us. [00:26:29] Speaker A: If you are the parent of a high school baseball player with college aspirations, you already know the recruiting process can feel overwhelming. Endless showcases, non stop emails and big promises with very little clarity. That's why we recommend Diamond College Showcase Camps, the nation's premier academic baseball showcase. At Diamond College showcases, every college coach in attendance is there with a purpose to coach, instruct, evaluate and recruit. Every player is seen, every player is engaged, and every family leaves with a clear understanding of where they truly stand. This is not a Mass camp College coaches run the drills, evaluate every athlete, and provide honest professional feedback that you can trust. Diamond College Showcase camps are built for serious student athletes who value both baseball and academics. If you're looking for transparency, clarity, and a recruiting experience that respects your time in your players future, Diamond College Showcase is the place to be. To learn more, visit diamond collegeshowcase.com. [00:27:32] Speaker B: No, I love that. I mean, I think we're the finished product is. It's not really true in college and everybody wants to, like, there's still a development piece. There's still a lot of coaching that happens. So it's cool to hear you talk about the, the different ways that you go about it and the different ways that you look at it, because there's some coaches who, hey, if you don't throw enough strikes, you know that's just not going to be a fit for us. And yeah, it's such an interesting conversation. We could probably get a bunch of pitching guys on one podcast and have you guys hash it out, because I think there's, there's differing views on that and it's, it's cool that you lean into that and you feel like you have a, a plan to help these guys get back in the zone or just be a little bit more effective. So. I dig that. [00:28:18] Speaker A: I don't think it's over at any point in time. The development, to be clear, I've had youth coaches tell me that, you know, it's a project. Yeah, they're 10, dude. Everyone's a project. What are we talking about here? Like, do you think, do you think they show up to college and they're just. You don't have to coach them? Like, that's not how this works. [00:28:43] Speaker B: Yeah, there's. There's so many stories, and you see it in all kinds of sports, but like, you, you see it in professional baseball, too, where you start unpacking the big leaguer, and everybody gravitates to, like, the Bryce Harpers and stuff. And it's like most of those guys start stories. It's not this, like, linear path to superstardom. A lot of these guys had ups and downs or they had to go to junior college or they had to transfer or, you know, they were a Rule 5 guy. And like, you know, that path to being really good, sometimes it just comes down to connecting with the right people who can get you on the right path. [00:29:20] Speaker C: Well, and I think it's, I think that's a really good lesson just for high school kids and their, and their parents going through this process and it's. I mean, it's something that. I don't know. I. I mean, I try to put myself back to when I was 16 or 17. If somebody was telling me this, I'd kind of go like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's. It's. It's probably hard to hear, I think, when you're a high school player and you're going through the process and you're just trying to break through and have a school offer you and get interested. But. But being okay with the long game and trying to, you know, put yourself in a. In a spot where this is going to be the best spot for me to develop moving forward, it's. It's really easy for me to sit here in this chair not being a player anymore and say that it's harder for a high school player to listen to that and take that advice and not have anxiety and be okay with that. But it's really true, because I think you see it all the time. I mean, gosh, there's. They'll profile guys pitching in the big leagues in the World Series, and they'll talk about how nobody recruited him out of high school and he wasn't even really that good in junior college. And then he got to this place and had one good year and just kept going and kept plugging away. And it might have happened for him at age 24 or something, you know, until he finally kind of broke through. But being okay with the long game, I think it's just such a good. Such a good piece of advice, I think, for a high school student athlete. [00:30:54] Speaker A: I think our game is. People develop at such a different rate in this game, you know, and not that, you know, it's tough to compare to hoops or football or some of these other sports. But, you know, generally speaking, you're not playing in the SEC in football if you're not an absolute physical freak who is uber athletic. [00:31:17] Speaker C: Right. [00:31:18] Speaker A: And then, you know, same thing with. With hoops. Like, you got to be tall. You got to be athletic. Like baseball. [00:31:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:24] Speaker A: You want to move well, you got to be athletic, you know, but you don't necessarily have to be a dude who's going to be 94 to 97. You know, you can pitch at 89, 91, and have a devastating breaking ball and get guys out, you know, so everyone just kind of develops at a different rate. And I think it's. It's worth talking about in baseball because your path is not going to be linear, and it's going to take a little bit longer. [00:31:46] Speaker C: For sure. And I think, too, just the nature of at least especially pitching now, it's about evolving year after year. Like, the best guys out there, like, can't just go out and just do the same thing for ten straight years anymore. Like, you know, I'm sure, you know, like, when I grew up watching baseball in the 90s, I'm sure the guys were evolving, but now, I mean, it's like guys are developing a new pitch type, and it's just like, you know, year after year, they're maybe not reinventing themselves, but there's an evolution to the game that is. It's. It's there and it has to happen. Otherwise somebody who's evolving at a quicker pace is going to pass you up, you know, And I think that's another thing to kind of twist into, you know, be okay with playing the long game. It's not about necessarily, you know, going exactly where you had pictured in your mind at 17 years old and, you know, going to the Division 1 school, your dreams, you know, having. Having a little bit more of a longer view about what your development path is. [00:32:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I think. I mean, we had a. We had a big leaguer used to throw at RPI when I was there. Albany guy who played Division 2 baseball, pitched in the big leagues for 10 years. But I remember he came back and was. He was. Sorry. Guest appearance by my son. The. He was throwing his change up at, like, gosh, probably like 300ft. And he was talking to one of our, you know, he's throwing our pitchers and our pictures. Like, why do you throw it from that far? And, you know, obviously it's because he's. He can, but he's like, you know, I. My. I'm changing my arm slot a little bit. Like, I have to get the feel for being able to get this baseball out in front to get it to what I wanted to do. And the only re. The only way that I can do it is I have to be super far out and really let it go so that I get the feeling of being in that slot. He's like, is. If I'm on my fastball here and my change up here, they know out of the hand what pitch it is. So everything has to come out of the same slot all the time. [00:33:55] Speaker B: And it was just. [00:33:56] Speaker A: It was interesting to hear him talk about it and, you know, it obviously makes a lot of sense, but just like, for him, that was what he needed to do in order for him to continue to pitch in the big leagues for 10 years. But it was like, no, I, like, you know, he's like, I believe in throwing your change up far out. He's like, I wouldn't tell you you should throw it at 300ft all the time. Like he throws 100. So he can do that. It's a little different. But like the point, the, the whole point is that, you know, he was to your point of evolving. Like he, you're right. He couldn't do the same thing for 10 straight years. It was like he was going to get figured out. So changed arm slot a little bit and then that whole process starts. All you go down this rabbit hole of all these other things. Well, like I can't, I can't be here and here. It's all got to come out of the same way. How do I do that? And for him that's what it was. And I think that it's, it's such an interesting rabbit hole I think you can go down because it's not a one, it's not a one stop shop for everyone. Something's, it's like, you know, and that's cool coaching, right? Like, you say the same thing a billion times and hope that it, you know, something eventually sticks. But you know, I think it's interesting where, you know, there's team, you know, and I'm sure you've seen it. Like you say things and some guys are like, oh, we're doing this again. It's like, yeah, man, it's not for you. So like, just go do what I'm asking you to do. Because it's actually for the four other guys that I actually need them to make the jump. So like, yes, go do it. Because it's a basic and you have to do it, but it's not for you. So quit them. Open, fix your body language and go do it for me. And you know, but it's, you know, it's those things that I, I think are so interesting. You can get into coaching and talk about all this stuff where it's, I love this aspect of it and I think it, like, it's, it's such a cool thing like to see you doing and, and talking about, and the run you guys made last year and how good you've been. Like, I, I, it's awesome to sit here and talk about this with you. So I'm excited 30 minutes in. Of course. [00:35:52] Speaker B: I wanted to pick your brain on this particular topic. We talked about it a little bit before we got rolling here, but I think in youth baseball we're fixated on game day but, you know, and you're, we're talking about evolving, we're talking about preparation, we're talking about being able to make adjustments. If you're the Friday guy, Saturday through Thursday are super, super important. Can you walk us through like, what a week looks like in the life of a starter in your program? [00:36:25] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. I think it, it can be fairly individualized, but there, there definitely is at least a, you know, a little bit of a blueprint, you know, as to how it goes, I think at a lot of programs. But, you know, at least speaking for us, we're gonna, we're gonna lift and get at least two major lifts in, you know, between starts. And that doesn't mean that the only times those guys are getting in the weight room is just twice a week. I mean, we have a lot of guys that are getting in there every single day in between their starts and doing something, you know, to kind of escalate their recovery. And I think where the individualization comes in there is there we do have some guys who, you know, I think there would be some, you know, certified strength coaches that would veto this. But we do have a couple guys every now and then that really prefer after they pitch a seven inning start, a hundred pitches to go ahead and get a lift in the very next day, you know, and more often than not, though, we're going to do not nothing, but close to nothing the next day after a start. We're going to let the body chill a little bit. We're going to focus on how much sleep, hydration and our diet throughout the entire week. And always, but especially on that, that, that day after your start, because that is in, in some respect, it's, it's one of the only things that we really want you worrying about to just kind of let the central nervous system and the muscles chill a little bit before we activate them again, you know, but then our guys are getting probably a major strength lift in, you know, for maintenance, you know, two days after their start. And then, you know, we're going to throw a midweek bullpen, a side session, you know, and on what day that falls, you know, oftentimes for a Friday starter, it's, it's on a Tuesday. But it can be fluid. Right. Like we've had some guys that no matter what, they've always preferred to wait till Wednesday. And that's going to be a little bit lighter, you know, than the guy that, that might go, you know, three days out. And then, you know, I think the, the time that we're Getting in the weight room, the closer that we get to our next start, it's a little bit more movement based, mobility based. It's, it's trying to not necessarily get our, our core strength lifts in, but mobilize the body to start feeling better and better. Um, you know, I, I talk to our guys all the time about, you know, you have to be really, really good. Um, you know, sometimes you take the ball every seventh day, and it's okay if you don't feel 100% on any given day, but our goal for those six days leading up is that's all we're worried about is everything that we're doing. We're trying to optimize what we do with our body in order to feel 100% by the time we take the ball next, you know, and I think the other piece of that too is, you know, we'll, we'll reflect on, on the previous outing as well. It's not all physical preparation. Right. There's a lot that, that goes into the mental preparation, you know, and I think it's, it can be something where you, you, you certainly can overanalyze what you did, whether it had in your previous start, but be able to take away things that we did really well that we want to keep doing and things that we didn't do very well and we want to be able to correct, you know, and then on some, you know, whether it's our side session or some of our days throwing that week, if we've identified that the day after our start, you know, we can kind of formulate a plan of attack on, hey, this is how we're going to divvy up our reps in our throwing and in our bullpen in order to correct, you know, what we want to correct. And I think your throwing workload can really vary from week to week. But that's one of the biggest things that we talk to our guys about is getting really in tune with what days to have off days, what days to have as light, what days to have as moderate, and what days we should have as our heavy days. And I think typically we're trying to have our guy have his heavy day, you know, in between starts, be that bullpen day, and then all the other days around it are either going to be off light or moderate, you know, and, and when we break those down, we talk to our guys about it's not just the volume, but it's the distance and it's also the intensity, you know, the effort level, you know, so it's all three of those things that kind of factor into is this a light day, a medium day, or a heavy day, you know, And I, I think it's, it's, it's really unique from guy to guy. Like, I, it's funny because I, I actually remember I was recruited by a. A pitching coach named Billy Mole, who now he's the pitching coach at Creighton. But he's kind of been all over. He's with Mark Kingston for a little while. And I remember him talking one time about a pitcher they had that was kind of near the end of his career. And I mean, the dude would go out 100 pitches, eight innings, was awesome. And he was talking about how that guy, I mean, he could barely lift his arm, you know, like the next couple days after a start, like it was hanging on by a thread. And he literally told me his senior season he wouldn't pick up a baseball in between starts. And I've never heard of that before. It's the only guy I've ever heard of. But that's, that speaks to. You have to really individualize what's going to work for that particular guy. Right? We have some guys where they might have two heavy days and they might play long toss and their throwing workload might be actually pretty strenuous, you know, compared to some other guys. And then we have some guys where it's like we're going to kind of coast a little bit, at least in terms of our throwing workload in between starts, because that's how I'm going to feel 100% when I'm expected to go, you know, get people out the next time. [00:42:37] Speaker B: I love how there's, there's principles but no absolutes. And I think that's important for, for high school guys to understand. There's two layers to this. And the reason I asked this question is I think a lot of guys don't have a routine. I think the importance of what you're saying is that you need to have a routine. The goal is putting together a collection of days that lead you to the next start day. I feel like I'm as close to 100 as I can be in that you gotta lift during that window, but you got to figure out what works for you. And to your point, you know, there's some guys that I play, that I played with and Keith played with who threw a ton in between starts. And then, you know, I was. When I was at William Mary, we had guys who would just do a touch field bullpen, and basically they Just had catch play outside of the weight room and it was, everybody handled it different. But I think the big thing is, is that everybody had a plan. And if you can execute that plan, like for the high school kid who's trying to oppress college coaches, you want to do everything that you can that on start day you've given yourself the best opportunity possible to be good. And you don't do that by not doing nothing. But you got to figure out kind of what works for you. And so I think the idea that you have principles, but speaking to like, you have some guys who do more and some guys who do less. And I mean, I think that's part of, part of development. I think it's something that a lot of high school kids need to start to think about, especially from the pitching side, that, you know, if you want to go impress a guy on a Friday in this summer, well, the week leading up to that, like, we got. [00:44:16] Speaker C: To get that right for sure, for sure. You know, one thing we do that I wouldn't, I wish somebody told me to do this when I was in high school. And I think it's good advice for high school pitchers that are kind of taking the ball once a week or once every five, six days, whatever is we have guys go ahead and write down. I wish I had this right next to me, I'd hold it up. But it's just a, it's just a seven day chart and it's got Monday through Sunday written on it. And there's a physical recovery and preparation row. There's a mental preparation row underneath each day. And then there's, you know, there's some space for some other stuff like, you know, what we're doing in the weight room and all that. But I just have guys write down at the beginning of the season, hey, you know, I don't necessarily. Can be kind of hard because sometimes I don't know exactly. I don't know that I'm going to give you the ball every single Friday here. But you know, this is kind of a generalization. But if you're going to plan your week out for seven days, what are you, what are you throwing, you know, what kind of throwing are you going to do on Monday? What kind of throwing, what distance, what intensity level are you going to do on Tuesday? What are you going to eat, how many hours of sleep are you going to get? What are you going to do to make sure you're hydrated and then what are you doing on the mental side? What's your mindset? Going to be like when you're at practice doing your side session, when you're getting your toss in and I just have them ride it out. I was a guy that benefited from that as a player, as a coach, just writing down my thoughts, being organized in that way. And I'll tell you, it evolves a ton. And a lot of times what guys write down initially come April, maybe they've tweaked it quite a bit, but it gives them a really good starting spot as to, hey, I'm going to hold myself accountable to, this is my plan. This seems like what I need to do instead of just kind of waking up each morning and winging it based on how you feel. I think having a seven day plan written out in front of you with some thought behind it is a really good way to go about it. [00:46:22] Speaker A: I think it's interesting how much it's changed since even we got into coaching, right. And Steve, you're a tad bit younger than Andy and I, but. And I don't know if this is true for you, like when Andy and I were in college, no one talked about nutrition or sleep or, or what. I mean, I shouldn't say we didn't talk about it, but it wasn't, it's not what it is now, right. Like I, I feel like Andy, we were on the front end of the explosion of lifting in college for baseball. Like we, like we, we got after it in the weight room. But I don't know, like it was the early 2000s and that was, it's not what it was. It were what it is now, I should say. But we didn't really have discussions on like, hey, how much are you guys sleeping? What are you guys putting in your bodies other than the normal, like, let's not light it up too much on Friday, Saturday night, like probably not a good idea guys, but you know, we didn't have that. There were no nutritionists, there were no like sports psychologists. There was like, this was the pitching plan for the week and this is just what you did. Whereas now, you know, we've, we've gotten more individualized but also given kids the, a little bit of autonomy to kind of figure out like what works for you and what doesn't. Which I think is it's awesome for the game, it's awesome for the kids. I mean we had, you know, when Ferrish was my pitching coach, you know, he brought a lot of stuff with him, obviously from Healy and Hobbs who are, you know, really good pitching coaches in their own right, you know, and like, he would totally. Like, some guys would be like, hey, I. I don't like throwing a bullpen two days before my start. Can I. Can I throw it three days in front of my start? Maybe throw an extra 10 pitches and then go a little, you know, and then. But like, just toying with those things, and then you saw them have success and be like, duh, okay, I. That might. Maybe that's what you need to do. Or, you know, the guys who. They'd come out and they're not good in the first inning. And then after two starts, fair should be like, hey, it was usually me yelling at him, but, you know, him being like, hey, maybe we need to throw a little bit more in our bullpen, or we need to do a little bit more throw. Like, you know, when we're long tossing, maybe we need to throw for an extra 5. Whatever it is, to feel like we're. We're getting into our start not in the second inning, but in the first. And, you know, but it's. It's interesting, I think, how, you know, we. We. We've. We've gone to the side of trying to figure out how to get the best out of kids and not just doing the old. Like, this is the pitching plan. The. The starters are all throwing their bullpens on Wednesday. The relievers are maybe throwing on Thursday, depending on whether or not they threw on Tuesday or Wednesday. It's like, all right, like, we're just going to throw bullpens every day this week. Catchers, tough, tough. [00:49:14] Speaker B: Go. [00:49:14] Speaker A: But this is what we're doing. [00:49:16] Speaker B: And it. [00:49:16] Speaker A: But it's better for the kids, and it's better for the program in the long run because you're. You're giving kids the ability to, you know, to recover. We didn't talk about recovery, right? Like, it was just, hey, how about we're playing 56 and we're playing a doubleheader on Tuesday because we got washed. And then we're playing Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And then, like, you're just rolling everything. Like, it wasn't until my junior year where someone was like, you should probably get in a cold bath. Like, you've caught a lot of games, your legs seem dead. Like, maybe go sit in a cold bath. And I was like, I don't even know what that is. So then I went and sat in an ice bath, and it was life changing. My legs felt like a million bucks. I felt like I go run a marathon, you know? But, like, we never talked about that stuff, and I. I think it's odd. Like, we didn't talk about hydration. We didn't talk about, like, none of that stuff was really ever discussed. Right. It was just like, gears, baseball. And this is what we've done for years. And I think the blend of what you're seeing now, where I think the people who do it the best, right. And there. There's a long list of people out there that I. I think do a really good job of this, are the people that can blend the old school with the new school and find success and not just be like, well, back in my day, I just, you know, hit off the te all the time, and we didn't worry about this. And then, you know, the guy, like, we need more. We need more lacks in our. Our lap to be able to rotate and get the, you know, get the rubber band lacks to, like, okay, enough, dude. Like, just because you use big words doesn't mean you're smart. But being able to marry it because at the end of the day, like, it. We're not playing the game. It's the kids. They're the ones that need to understand and be able to go out there and do it when the lights are on. And all of this stuff matters. It does. Ultimately. Ultimately. And I think that, you know, Andy, what you're driving out of being, like, if you're a high school kid trying to get recruited, like, you have to do all of this stuff during the course of the week so that when you go throw in front of a bunch of coaches on Friday or Saturday, you're in the best position to be able to give yourself the success for these guys to watch you throw. Conversely, in college, it's. It just gets more detailed when you get to that level because you're. You're gonna have a lot more guys. Like, there's better players. There's other guys you have to compete with that are in your own dugout that you have to go be better than so that you get an opportunity to have the ball. And I just think that it's awesome with where we're at with. And it's not just on the pitching side. It's on the hitting side, too. But, you know, I think pitching it, you can point to a lot of certain specific things because every kid is different. And you, like, some guys want to throw their bullpen a little bit earlier. Some guys, you know, some guys are like, nah, two days in front of. It's good for me. Like, that's always worked for me. I don't want to change. Changed anything. Okay. You know, but like, how do we get in the flow of the games? And then, you know, same thing I. I would imagine. And I know this, but, like, you're getting high school kids that have never pitched out of the bullpen before. Like, what does that look like for you know what I mean? Like, that's a huge adjustment for younger players. Like, you know, I've never come into the game in the fifth with a runner on second and one out in a tie game. Like, I've only ever started. Like, that's a completely different mindset. That's a completely different way of getting your body ramped up. And you've sat for five innings. Like, now all of a sudden it's like, yo, get hot. Like, okay, well, if you've done nothing for five innings, it's probably going to take you a little bit longer. But if you've been moving around, running, throwing weighted balls, all these things, like, and generally speaking, there is a plan. So everyone who is out there listening, like, you have a plan going into the game of, like, okay, first arm up is Andy, second arm up up is Steve. You know, if we get into trouble, we're not going to Keith. So, like, now my. I'm gone. Like, I'm down for the rest of the days. But, like, so, you know, so, like, there is a plan for everyone who listens to this. It's not just like, coaches don't just go into a game and a series and be like, I don't know who we're gonna throw in fifth if we get in trouble, whatever. Like, there's some. There. There's a. There's a method to it. So the kid, like, you know, as a kid, but, like, that's a whole other, you know, I don't want to say bag of issues because it's not. But that's a whole other process that you have to learn that you've never. Because you probably. You've likely never done it before. If you have, it's a scheduled, like, hey, you're going to throw the fourth because we're splitting the game in the. You know, he's going to throw three, you're going to throw three, you're going in the fourth. Just get your body ready. Like, that's a completely different animal than a conference weekend. Like, hey, there's a run around second. It's a tie game. It's a one. One game on. On Sunday, and we don't want to lose this game. Like, okay, like, it's a different level of pressure and you got to be able to go through your process, to be able to figure out how you're going to be able to have success in those moments. Sorry, that was long winded. [00:53:47] Speaker C: No, for sure. And there's, there's only three guys. I mean, I guess four. If you have a consistent midweek starter. There's three guys that are, that are on that kind of schedule. And like you said, it doesn't matter if high school. A lot of the junior college guys that we recruit even to, they're coming in and, you know, if they're not one of the three guys that are starting, a lot of times they have to get accustomed quick and learn how to. The mindset stuff you talked about of being a reliever, how to recover. Right. Like a lot of our relievers, hey, if you pitch on a Saturday, we're aiming to bring you back for Tuesday's game so we can win that, you know, and so, you know, the three, four day recovery plan, you know, and how you go about your preparation and recovery in that window. And this is something that a lot of guys never experience until they are, hey, this is my, this is my role now on the college pitching staff. You know, it's something almost every single guy has to experience who's a college pitcher at some point because very rarely are you going to come in at 18 years old and, oh, I'm a weekend starter already. Great. [00:54:49] Speaker B: You know, I always thought the bullpen thing, there's two things that I always thought were really difficult. One it was how do you make sure a guy's ready, right. You're talking about like the recovery plan and, you know, and then understanding what certain guys can do because, you know, you know, and we know that there's some guys who can throw 30 pitches on Friday and come back and be really good for another 30 on Sunday. There's some guys, if they throw 30 on Friday, they're done for the weekend. The other thing that I think super unique about bullpen guys is you don't get a chance to settle into a game. You, you don't have time to find your slider. Like, you either got it or you don't, because if you don't, you're probably not going to be on that long. And that whole preparation of like, how do you get yourself ready for an inning? Understanding who you are and what you do well, understanding the situation that you, you're going to walk into, especially if you're not going to get a clean inning, you know, you're going to be coming out of the Stretch, maybe there's a guy in scoring position which means you're probably going to have to pitch a little bit off. Typical sequence. So can you come in, can you come in and rip a slider? Oh, oh. And get ahead in the count? Like that's not, that's not, it's such, it's not an easy thing to ask guys to do and like how you prepare for that. I don't even want to begin to unpack that. But like that's one of the transitions that a lot of high school guys, they have to figure out at some point because as you stated, not a lot of freshmen walk in and pitch on the weekends these days. I don't think it's happened a ton historically, but even, even less now with the level of competitiveness at the junior college level with the transfer portal. Like that 18 year old kid who's ready to come in and pitch in a tough environment as a freshman on a Sunday. They're not a lot of those guys running around college baseball right now. So they got to figure out how can I be good for six outs? [00:56:47] Speaker C: Yes, that's the, that's the number one learning curve thing for a freshman pitcher coming to play pitch at the college level that I find year after year. It's the, it's one of the things that comes up with every single guy is you have to learn that you don't have a long time to settle into a game to be your best. Almost every single guy runs into that learning curve early on where they go out and whether it's a four pitch walk and then all of a sudden the inning spirals or I threw ball one because I wasn't ready to go. I didn't warm up properly, I didn't use my warmup pitches the right way. My mindset wasn't where it needed to be from. Pitch number one, I fall behind two and oh, and then, you know, a big left handed hitter that's 23 years old just hit one.450ft because I had to lay one in there because I wasn't ready to go in the first two pitches. You know, I mean every single year that's, that's the biggest, that's the biggest learning curve I see all the time. [00:57:46] Speaker B: I mean you try to get those, you try to get that out of the way in the fall, like yeah, oh yeah. The best you can. [00:57:53] Speaker C: Yeah. And I'm glad when it happens because you have to. I think something like that you only learn from when it happens to you and it feels Awful. And then, and then you, you know, next time you get the ball, you know, you know, and I think you talk about what your processes are, right? Utilizing your warmup pitches, making sure you're physically and mentally locked in when you come in out of the pen. But it's, it speaks to your point. There's so many high school guys have been able to get away with like I wasn't very good in the first inning, but I know I'm going to be out here for the next five innings because I'm the dude and they ain't going to take the ball away from me and I'll be fine. But it's like, well, if, if that's your mindset and that's how you come out, you know, as a freshman pitcher, guess what, like, we're going to pull you because we got 15 other guys that are chomping at the bit to get opportunities and innings, you know. [00:58:45] Speaker B: Well, and there's less room for error too because of the competition level. Like when you're in high school, you can come in and have a tough first inning and kind of pitch your way out of it because you can, you know, kind of just door some dude with a good fastball and like get out of the way. But in college, like that eight hole guy, he was the three hole guy in his high school team and you're, you're 91 and in really scaring him much and like being able to, to settle into that flow is, yeah, it's, it's an interesting, it's an interesting beast that these guys got to handle. And I'm glad you answered that question because we didn't even ask a question. But that was going to be one of the things, things I was going to ask you is like what's, what's the staples learning curve for high school pitcher And I think you nailed it. Like it's such a transition. It really is for sure. That 450 foot home run pull idle, that'll wake you up real quick though. You hope that happens in the fall so you can have that conversation with them. Like, all right, you saw what happens when you're not prepared. Let's talk about what we're going to do to make sure that we minimize the risk of that happening again. [00:59:49] Speaker C: Oh yeah, oh yeah. I tell guys all the time, you know, have a tough day in the fall and I, that's, that's why we're out here doing this, man. Like these games don't count. Don't, don't, don't Be too hard on yourself for a long time. That's why it's. That. That happening to you right now is exactly why we put on our uniform and come out here and do this in the fall so that you can learn from that right now. [01:00:12] Speaker B: That fall environment is such a unique one for. For a freshman, too. The pace, the intensity, the competition level. But I think you hit on something. I think that all good coaches understand is that it's practice. And, like, that's the time you want guys to mess up so you can coach them, like, to throw a bad pitch or not be good at holding the runner in a particular situation so that you can teach them or. No. I always thought about it from, like, a hitting perspective, like, make a. Make an aggressive mistake so we can coach it back. Like, you know, throw to the wrong base so we can coach the situation. Like, we never worried about that kind of stuff because it was all about, all right, well, that's a good opportunity for us to make sure that we understand the situation. And I think sometimes freshmen think you got to be perfect in those moments. But coaches understand, and, you know, especially the really good ones, that we're okay with mistakes. We just. We don't want to see that mistake happen over and over again. [01:01:14] Speaker C: Yep. For sure. It's. I think we try to preach this to guys. It's. It's not the guys that end up playing and getting better, and the guys that, you know, the coaching staff is happy with at the end of a day or a week or whatever aren't the guys that play perfectly. It's the guys that do screw up, and then the very next day, they learn from that mistake and they're doing that thing better. That's how you end up on the field. You learn from your mistakes quickly. [01:01:41] Speaker B: Parents, if you've ever felt overwhelmed trying to navigate youth sports, there's a new resource designed just for you. TeamMatch. Team match is an online platform built to streamline how families find the right youth sports teams by location, sport and skill level all in one place. It also provides a safe, organized space for kids to share their accomplishments, stats, and highlights, while giving coaches and teams a clear way to connect with athletes who are the right fit. Less searching, less stress, more confidence in the process. Youth sports just got simpler for families. This is Team Match. Check it out today@teammatch sports.com that said, that's that resiliency. [01:02:27] Speaker C: Yep. Yep. [01:02:29] Speaker B: And I think a lot of times that's. It's driven by the culture where a kid can feel comfortable Making a mistake and being able to play, like, at full tilt where you don't get these. They're not tentative to do things. They're not tentative to try to throw that really good slider, or they're not tentative to take that extra base because they know, all right. It's a teaching moment. I'm not going to get. I'm not going to get blown up the first time that I go first to third and get thrown out by 26ft. Like, I'm gonna. You know, if you do it four or five times, yeah, I'm sure that. I'm sure the coach might have something to say to you, but those are cool environments to be in. I learned that with. Probably more so with Murph than anywhere else. Where, like, we wanted. That was, like, intentional was to play a lot. Right. A lot of inner squad, a lot of coach pitch, a lot of situational stuff. And the whole intention was get these guys to play as fast as they can, and we can coach them up on the mistakes that we made. And it seems like an obvious thing, but it's not always. It's not always the environment that you walk into. [01:03:35] Speaker A: No, but it's the only way that you can. I mean, I should. Yes, it seems obvious, but how else are you supposed to coach them in game if we're not doing things at full speed? Like, yeah, we can sit down and talk about stuff, but until you go do it, it's. It's a foreign concept, Right? Like we were doing. I tell the story all the time. We were doing double cuts my freshman year. Like, I never done a double cut. I didn't know what to do. Andy was just screaming, figure it out to me at home plate. Like, I'm yelling, two on double cuts. Like, there is no two call on a double cut. I'd never done it before. We talked about it, but we went and did it, and I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. And, you know, I. I just think that there's, you know, we've gotten. I don't want to say we've gotten away from. Because you still do it where you put the balls out at the wall or someone hits a Fungo. But, like, you're better off doing it in. In live situations, and you can set it up to the point where, like, you can do it, but, like, you're better off getting them to fail in those types of settings, because you can. They're all coachable, teachable moments. And I think that our sport is, you know, along the same lines of people develop different at different rates. It's so situationally driven that it like you don't, you know, it, you don't know that the air in the third could be the thing that ends up losing you the game or the, the bolt you gave up in the fourth because you weren't ready coming out of the bullpen was, you know, the deciding run that ends up losing. Right. But it's so situationally driven on certain things where you know, some like you can talk through one scenario and it's going to be, well, where are we at in the game? Game, you know, is it top of the first and there's a run around second base? Like, yeah man, just throw it across the diamond, get out. We have nine other chances to hit. If that run scores, is it the bottom of the eighth and that dude takes off and it's a one run game? Like, yeah, maybe we want to get in a rundown with that guy and try to get that lead out before he gets a third. He's 90ft away with two other opportunities to score him. And you know, and fields are different and it, you know, I've said this before, Andy, where you know, we wouldn't double cut at RPI down the right field line. It's 298ft. Like we don't need a double cut into the corner there, you know. So like what does that look like on our field if there's a sure double right down the line? Like, okay, this is what it looks like here at home. But we also do have to talk about what it looks like when we go somewhere else. And it's a legit field where it's you know, 3:30 and 380 in the gap and now not 290 and 350 like we can make. If our right fielder and our shorts, our second baseman can't make that throw, then we have bigger problems here. But you know, like all of those things are situationally driven. And I think that that's why it's so important that you like from a coaching perspective that you practice like you inner squad, you coach, you do all these things to put yourselves in positions to talk about it because you can't cover everything. At some point you have to cover as much as you can and then hope that they're athletes and make the right decision decision. But like you can cover a lot if we stop practice and you know, we're not stopping talking like as long as I have tonight. But like you're going to Walk through those things of like, hey, this is what it looks like in this situation. We got to run around second base. It's the, you know, for this purpose, we're in the fifth. It's a one run game. Like, yeah, or like we need to keep this guy off of second base. So unless you think, unless we think we can throw him out, like, no, let's go into second base because we want the double play in order because we're one pitch out of getting out of this inning. Don't sell it to home plate. Give up second base. And now we have no opportunity to get a double play. And we're putting more pressure on our pitcher. We're putting more pitches on his arm. We're doing all these things. And I think when you, you know, you start breaking everything down like that, like people start to understand why you do certain things in certain situation. [01:07:19] Speaker C: 100%. The way our, our boss Dan Skurka puts it to our guys a lot is, I mean, we do inner squad a lot. We do. We have our guys compete on a daily basis. And it's at first when I got to be a part of this program, I was kind of thinking to myself, like, you know, wearing these guys out, we're expecting them to bring in inner squad, compete so much every single day. And it's, it's what you just said, Keith, I think that's where you, it's where you're able to coach the mistakes out of guys. But I, to me, I think it's, yeah, it's, it's the most foolproof way to be able to coach situational baseball. And the way that that skirka puts it all the time is we're building our guys database. Right? So the more that we're inter squatting competing and actually playing the game and coaching the mistakes and, and, and praising the things they do well while in that competitive mode that enters the database and then they're out there and that's just how they play. Those are their habits when they're actually out there competing in the spring. [01:08:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I also think too like you and I don't know, like, I felt this way towards the back end of my career where like I felt for the first time in a long time, you. I'm not going to say kids are different because I don't, I'm not going to go down that road. But you had to, you had to teach the compete factor more than you had in the previous 5, 10, 15 years of coaching. Because it, you know, it's become a little bit more. And it's our fault because we show up to these things, but it's become a little bit more showcasey than it is legit gameplay of trying to actually go out and win. Like, yeah, people want to win, but, like, if you've been doing this long enough, it's not what it was 10, 15, 20 years ago, and it's just not. It's a reality and you have to adapt and adjust and overcome to this stuff. But I felt like towards the back end of my career, it was more of a. Like, I wanted to do it for the teaching aspect and being able to put us in situations to do those things to learn, but also like, we have to go compete and we're going to be playing another team. And I think one of the things, and Andy talks about this a lot, and he's dead right, is that I think high school kids struggle in understanding going into college that your main competition for the most part is going to be in your dugout. Like, you have to go be better than guys that your teammates with. And you got to be okay with that because that, like, that's how you end up getting on the field. That's how you get to compete more against other teams. Because if you can't do it against your own team, the likelihood of the coaching staff being like, yeah, no, we're going to run him out there, even though he has zero hits in the fall, like, no, man, you're not going to find yourself in the lineup. And I think it's especially true for pitchers, too, because you're, you know, think about how many times you inner squad, think about how many times you're going to go live during the course of the build up into the season. Like, you're, like, you're. I, I would argue and I, I'd love to see the math on this, but, like, you're going to eventually throw more times live against your own team than you are against another team over the course of your career. Because you're going to enter squad a ton. You're going to throw live in that build up. Like, you're going to. It's just like, you know, for those of you that don't know, like, you're not throwing, like, you're going to be throwing like 15 pitches and then 25 pitches. Like, it's a slow build into the seasons. So. But there's a lot of it that goes on. But you're gonna throw more against your own team. Like, you might only get eight appearances. You might throw live against your own team 30 times this year. So what did you do in those 30 times to show the coaching staff that you deserve an opportunity to go throw against other people? Right? Like if you're looking at the end of the year, like, I only got seven appearances. Like, well, you probably weren't all that great in against your own team. Like, what do we need to do in order to get our own guys out so that then we can go get other guys out? And I, I think that's a hard concept for people to kind of wrap their mind around when they get into college. But that's like, that's just the reality of what it is when you go play college base and really any sport. But in college baseball, like you're going to have a lot more opportunities against your own team from a live standpoint. That's why coaches hate the whole like, I just need more opportunities in game. Like, yeah man, you get them all the time. We inter squad all the time. Will you go live against, against all the hitters they're hitting 750 off of you. And nowadays like we have Trackman, we have rapsodo like that. We, you know, back in the day it was just like, ah, he can't miss a barrel. We can't put him out there. Now it's like no man, like everyone's triple digit exit vos off you and balls are traveling like an average of 732ft. Like we can't put you in a game and you know, but like that, that, that mindset of like, well, you know, I just need more opportunities. Opportunities. Like man, you get them every day and that like you have to have that mindset of like, you know, at the front of this when you talked about bringing it every day and being the best you can, like that's what you need to do in order to be able to get yourself more opportunities from a. An in game setting. [01:12:21] Speaker C: That's so well said. That's such a good point, man. [01:12:25] Speaker A: Thank you. I'm good for one up podcast. [01:12:32] Speaker B: Fair enough. I, I give you at least two. I feel like you can consistently at least two good ones. The final question that we, we like to ask folks, and I think you've had some, some nuggets in here already, so there's some other stuff that people should go back and listen to. But what advice would you give a player or family who is going through the recruiting process who or who has aspirations of playing college baseball? [01:13:02] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. I think we, we did talk a little bit earlier about being okay with that long term vision. Right. I think that is, that's if, you know, that's, that's probably the overarching big theme, the advice that I'd give, but some smaller stuff just along the way. You know, I think I had a, I had a zoom call with a recruit, a high school recruit a little bit earlier today and his parents were on the call and it was awesome because like I got to see a little bit more about his background and hear from the parents. And you know, I think we're always trying to dig and find out that information. And he was great because he took the lead and was his own voice and the questions that we asked, we got to hear from him and, and kind of get, you get a really good feel for what he's about and what kind of worker he is and what his goals are and all that because he took the lead and he was, he was really comfortable communicating. So that's, that's one of the biggest things that I would say. You know, when we recruit junior college guys, you aren't really dealing with parents ever. And I'm not, I'm never, very rarely am I having a conversation with one of their parents when we're recruiting a junior college guy. But it's often very different when we're, you know, we're recruiting high school guys. The parents are very involved and rightly so. You know, that's, that's, they're. The 17, 16, 17 year old is learning how to do that stuff. Right. They can't be expected to do all that on their own. But the best advice I can give is parents, allow your, encourage and allow your son to take the lead, be vocal, be a good communicator and allow them to be the one that's going through this process, you know, at the lead and certainly be there. Right. And ask the questions that they're not thinking of. Right. And you play a valuable role. I want to get to know who you are as a parent, but you know, I think that's, that might be a little bit more of a generational thing. You know, I think maybe we are finding nowadays there are some, some 16 year olds that are less comfortable having conversations with adults and, and you know, we're looking for that. So don't be afraid to, to be confident and, and take the lead as, as a communicator throughout the, the recruiting process, you know, and, and I think, you know, this has probably been said, you know, and, and I think it's, it's advice that that high school recruits have probably heard before. But I, you know, I think one of the, one of the main questions oftentimes is like, how am I going to get my name out there? How am I going to get noticed? How will I be seen? And, you know, I do think that, you know, reaching out emails, being really good about sending emails or that communication piece to a specific college that you are interested in, that's awesome. But we take a huge stock in the high school coach, the travel coach, maybe the, the private instructor that you work with on what their recommendation is. I mean, that's, that's probably the most common way that we get on a high school guy is we have somebody reach out that we either know really well or, you know, we're kind of trusting, you know, where they're coming from and they've recommended you, you know, and, and so I would say if, if you do have. Because it's, it's hard, it's really hard to be a high school guy and get noticed and, and kind of get on that recruiting board, get in the mix, you know, with, with the college recruiter nowadays, like, it's as hard as it's ever been. And that's probably what I would, I would recommend is the people that are coaching you, the people that have those connections, don't be afraid to go to them and say, hey, I want to go to this school. Can you reach out for me? Do you think I'd be a fit there? Can you, you know, reach out and give them, you know, my blessing and try to get my foot in the door there? Because that's, that's the, that's the biggest place that we're going to take initial stock in is, hey, does, you know, if I'm reaching out to a guy directly, a student athlete, the very next place I'm going, minutes later, is I'm going to a coach or I'm, I'm going to the, you know, somebody that works with them a lot to, to get their stamp of approval. So the more those people reach out on your behalf, I'm willing to listen. [01:17:42] Speaker B: No, I think that's great advice. All of that is, is really good advice. I think being the lead voice for a young kid, to your point, is hard. It can be hard. And. But I think it stands out. And I know that it's something that stands out with the guys that we work with, that there's some guys who's just really comfortable on the phone. They can hold a conversation. Well, they speak with some confidence, maybe a little Bit of a sense of humor. And I think that it helps you from a coach's perspective, it helps you develop a little bit of a relationship and you don't feel like you're, you're pulling teeth. Sometimes it takes time, you know, sometimes the first conversation is, can be tough and they grow into, oh, I've talked to Coach Atkins three or four times now, like, and you start to see the kid, like the real version of the kid. But I think it's something that they can practice or something that they can at least prepare for where it doesn't come off as like you're reading off of a script with questions, but going into a conversation with, hey coach, talk to me about how you develop guys. Like, I'm working on my change up right now and I just can't get it to click. Like, what would you tell me? Or you know, what's it look like when I, if I, if I get to play at Murray State? Like, you know, what are some of the key principles? Like what do I need to be prepared for? Like, I think you can, you can prep for those conversations. I think it's an awesome piece of advice that, you know, kids can prepare for that. And you, you want to take the initiative there because you guys are looking for self motivators, you're looking for accountable and kids that can kind of handle themselves in a really competitive environment. And a lot of times it takes some confidence. And I think you always got to step back and remember that you are talking to 15, 16, 17 year old kids. And I look back at 16 year old me and like, I geez, I cringe at some of the combos that I probably had with, with some coaches, but try to, try to pass on my mistakes and, and make sure that other guys don't make them. But I think that's a really good piece of advice. [01:19:45] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Don't be afraid of that phone call. Right? And yeah, you can prepare for it. And I like what you touched on, on, you know, if you're sitting there and you're looking for how can I prepare? What, what are some things I could ask him? Lean into that development piece. If a kid asked me that, hey, what do you do to help your guys develop a change up? Because that's what I'm working on right now. I love that I could sit there and I could talk for a half hour, you know, and, you know, and also I think in my mind then that gets me an understanding that hey, this is what he's geared towards. I'M going to need him to be interested in doing that when he's here. Right. And I love that he's showing an interest in that. I say that's great advice. Reach out and talk about development with the guy that's recruiting you. [01:20:36] Speaker A: I think it's huge. I mean, it obviously should go without saying, but, you know, we've all had them, and I feel like we've talked about this, Andy, but probably when we first started doing this podcast, you have conversations or people, your families in your office, and it's like the generic, you know, do you go away on spring break, do freshmen play? And it's like, go deeper into what it is that you're looking to pull out of these conversations. And I do think, you know, obviously, as coaches, we know, like, you're usually asked, like, oh, where else you visit? Like, this, the first one, like, okay, this is probably going to be a little generic. I'll try to pull a little bit more out of it. And usually they, you know, they get better as they go. But I think, you know, if you listen to this podcast and you're having conversation with coaches, like, do, like, do a little bit of. Of research on the front end about stuff, like, think about things that are important, that are going to be important to you, or you think they're going to be important to you and ask those types of questions, you know, and it, it, you'll stand out in the recruiting process because you'll get off the phone, be like, damn, that kid was squared away. Like, he had some really good questions and really has an idea or an understanding of what it is that he wants to do and wants to get out of this. And, like, that's a kid that, at the very least, I'm going to want to go out and see again and have more conversations with, versus, like, you know, if you're just going to add the generic, like, do freshman play, do you go to Florida? What does the schedule look like? Like, you can go on the Internet and look at it, but, like, you there. There's nothing that stands out. And nothing. Nothing's going to stand out in my mind of, like, yeah, no, he. He really wants to do this. Like, this is just kind of a, you know, okay, I'm here, and I think that, you know, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. Like, go a little bit deeper because it's going to. You'll set yourself apart, apart from everyone else in this process who's doing. I shouldn't say everyone, but you're going to set yourself apart from other people in this process that are doing it, because you're gonna. You're gonna show that there's. There's a level of intent behind what it is that you're doing. And, and what, you know, what I'm going to expect when you get here. And it, you know, if it's gonna match with what we do, then we're gonna go further down that road, right? Like, and there's gonna be times where you're gonna have conversations with coaches. You walk away and be like, damn, I don't know if that's the coach for me, because it happens on the coaching side, too. You're going to walk away and be like, I don't know if that kid's going to be able to handle us as a coaching staff. Great kid, great family, really good baseball player, but I don't know if he's going to be able to handle this place. And, and that happens in the recruiting process a lot more than people think. But, you know, like, we're all trying to discern that information as you're going through this process. But, you know, you can at the very least give yourself a really good opportunity of doing research on the front end and asking things that are, you know, super important to you. And maybe they're not in the long run, but, you know, at the time, maybe they are. But you can get that information and figure out if that's going to be the place for you. [01:23:28] Speaker B: Well said, Coach. Class. [01:23:29] Speaker A: Oh, that's two, huh? All right, done for the night. I'm logging off. [01:23:37] Speaker B: Well, Steve, this was awesome, man. Really appreciate your time chopping it up with us for, you know, hour and a half or so. I think this is an informative podcast. I think there's a lot of good stuff to take out of this for. For guys. And I just want to say thank you for sure. [01:23:54] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I really enjoyed it. [01:23:56] Speaker B: Thank you for listening this week. If you're watching on YouTube, go ahead and hit that subscribe button and smash that, like button for us. Check us out on Apple Podcasts or Google Podcasts as well as Spotify. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram MD Baseball. If you want to find out what me and Keith do to help families and players navigate the recruiting process, go ahead and check us out on emdbaseball.com. take a few minutes to check out our new online academy. I promise you'll get some good information out of that. Thanks again for listening. Check in with you next week. [01:24:37] Speaker A: Just watch.