Episode 143: Interview with Marist University Head Coach Lance Ratchford

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[00:01:13] Speaker B: This week's edition of the Dugout Dish podcast. I'm Andy Kirikidis, joined by my Wonderful co host, Mr. Keith Glasser. How we doing? [00:01:21] Speaker A: Great. How are you? [00:01:22] Speaker B: We got a. We got a Red Fox trifecta today. We do. We got. We got a special guest from our alma mater, somebody we're pretty excited to have on tonight. So, Keith, I'll kick it over to you for the intro and we'll get rolling. [00:01:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Tonight we are very happily joined by the current Marist Ball Fox head baseball Coach, entering his fourth season in 2026, Lance Ratchford. Lance, thanks for joining us, man. [00:01:50] Speaker C: Yeah, man. I'm super excited to get on with you guys and the podcast. I love it, man. It's, it's, it's awesome. And always great to, to get a couple Red Foxes all, all on a podcast together. This is really cool. [00:02:02] Speaker A: We got andy rocking a 2005 Marist baseball. Did you cut the hood off of that? [00:02:09] Speaker B: No, this is a crew. [00:02:10] Speaker A: That was a crew neck. [00:02:11] Speaker C: Yeah, I got, I got to get you new stuff. I got to get you some new stuff. [00:02:15] Speaker A: I got a 2005. We don't even go by this anymore. [00:02:18] Speaker C: I was like, yeah, we need to bring it back. We need to bring it. We got to get a throwback. [00:02:21] Speaker A: We're going throwbacks tonight, Andy and I. But no, we're super excited to have you on. You know, it's a long time coming, but, you know, couldn't be more thrilled to have three Red Foxes on tonight, talking about college baseball recruiting and our alma mater and what we do there and how we've done it. And the strong, you know, alumni network we have, but also the strong commitment that we have to baseball as an alumni base, I think, for, for us at Marist and how much we still care. So we might come off the rails a little bit tonight for those that are listening, because it's a little bit more of a homecoming, but we'll, we'll get the job done. Actually, we're not even getting into the question yet. Before we get into questions, just give our listeners a quick rundown of how you ended up at Marist. [00:03:06] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. So in my track's a little interesting. Play my college ball in Pennsylvania. I actually started my career, you know, in the PSAC at Mansfield University, where got to play in a. Play in a Regional in 2010. Ultimately, I did find a new home and transferred out for my senior season. I transferred to another small Division 3 school in Pennsylvania, Keystone College. You know, you know, a tiny Division 3 school, but obviously, you know, baseball power coach. Chevs built, you know, a powerhouse there in LaPlume, Pennsylvania. So I got to play there my senior year. Got to play in some big games, got to win a conference championship and win a regional championship and go to the College World Series and do some cool things. Got into coaching right away as an assistant, you know, in my hometown of Oneonta, New York. Got to coach at SUNY Oneonta for, for four years before Chris Shraz hiring me on as a volunteer here first. And, you know, eventually was, you know, was. Was promoted to, to, to a recruiting assistant here. You know, got a chance to coach in the Cape Cod League as well. You know, during my, you know, during my stint, you know, at Oneonta and then obviously here at Marist. Got to win a Cape League championship. Won one and lost one. Did four summers. Got to coach some really good players and, and then ultimately my last summer in the Cape, you know, got a phone call from, from Tim Murray with the opportunity to. To come back here and, you know, be the next head coach, you know, after Chris Traz was hired at army and know, obviously I jumped at the bit to it and this has been a dream come true for me and a dream job here and got to come back here and, and be, you know, be the next head coach after Chris Traz, which, you know, I'm obviously just super thankful for. [00:04:55] Speaker B: So, yeah, we, we love Mr. Traz here as well. We both played with him and he did some awesome things with the program and it's good to see that you're continuing this success and you know, had a nice year last year and everything. There's, there's an interesting connection between Keystone and Marist. Yeah, we had, we had some junior when they were junior college before they went to Division 3. Like Coach Cook, Brad Cook, who we've had on the podcast. Who's the head coach? [00:05:23] Speaker C: Homer. [00:05:24] Speaker B: Yeah, Keystone guy, Chris Homer, who's took me under his wing when I was a freshman. If Chris ever listens to this, I never got a chance to thank him, but he was, he was one of my favorites and really appreciate just him kind of showing me the ropes. You know, he was a seasoned dude, end up with a nice minor league career and, you know, was. Was just a savage competitor, somebody I really enjoyed being around. But yeah, that Keystone connection with Marist is strong. [00:05:52] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it's huge. And yeah, Chris Homer, Brad Cook, really good players at Keystone and ended up finishing up their careers, you know, you know, at Marist. And I want to say both of them were, were Traz's roommates as well. And then I got to play for Chris Homer. He was actually our pitch, our College World Series team at Keystone. So me and him had a great relationship, you know, won some big games with him. I want to say he's like the all time leader in appearances for, you know, within the minor league system for the Tigers. Like, I think he's thrown and appeared in more games than anybody. So, yeah, even that connection, but even how like my, my journey started, you know, got to play, you know, at Keystone for Chev, but, you know, Eric Pelletier, you know, it was his first season, you know, as an assistant coach. Chev had hired him, you know, fresh out of school. Pelly was, was. Was in charge of the hitters and the infielders, and he actually was, you know, was hired on here to be, you know, Trez's recruiting coordinator. And, you know, when he got drifted, I was, you know, looking for a volunteer assistant job and, you know, I was bouncing around in the Cape Cod League. You know, Eric called me up and was like, hey, you know, hey man, come here. Be a volunteer and, you know, do this thing with me and Traz. And so it was a Keystone connection that ultimately brought me here as well. And, you know, obviously me, Pelly and Traz got to do some really awesome things together. You know, one of the most fun time I had, you know, coaching baseball and doing it with us three and winning a championship in 2017 and taking the Ball Foxes to Gainesville was really cool. To compete in a regional was, was awesome. But yeah, it was a keystone connection that started it here for me, which was really cool. [00:07:36] Speaker B: No, absolutely, absolutely. First question, do we ask every coach before we get into the. The fluid baseball talk, but talk us through kind of how the recruitment process works for you guys in terms of how you go about identifying players, maybe even some, like, some timeline stuff, some things that you really value in the recruiting process. What's that look like at Marist? [00:07:59] Speaker C: Yeah, so I think, like, every recruiting process, like, the evaluation happens first, right? So, you know, every year we, you know, we. We look at our recruiting calendar. Obviously major events that are in New Jersey and obviously in the New York area, in the New England area as well. I mean, from, you know, Garden State games to New York games to, you know, the Boston Open, you know, you know, pockets of some of the best events around in the summer. You know, you know, obviously we're there. So I think the evaluation process happens first, and then us just following guys, like, following guys and how their growth is and, you know, how they. How they. How they have almost just taken that steps, you know, of, you know, starting to show really well and then obviously starting to produce, whether it's in high school or in travel, baseball. And then I think the next piece of it is, you know, the communication piece with us, like, you know, having that first line of communication with them and finding out if they're the right person. And I think ultimately, you know, I think right now kids are like, oh, man, they're just inviting me to camp. Like, no, I think that that's major. I think that's actually that almost close to that final step for us. Right? The evaluation process happens, then the follow happens, where we continue to watch a player, and then the conversations, you know, start to happen, and then we start to develop those feelings of, hey, you know, this kid fits, you know, the type of person he is, the type of student he is, his work ethic, you know, if we think he's going to grow at the college level and develop, and then I think that next step is, like, we got to get him to campus. And usually that first campus, you know, stop is. Is at a prospect camp or a team camp or us just getting them here and then evaluating them more as a person before we make that offer. And. And, you know, obviously we. We see if they're, you know, bound to be. Be a Red Fox at the end of the day. But, you know, I think that that process, it's a longer one, and I think you can even feel it as a recruit, like, hey, they've seen me a couple times now. The line of communication is happening. They want me to come to campus, you know, after camp. You know, maybe an unofficial visit follows. And then after that, man, like, you know, going through that process, like, you know, then it's, you know, obviously a 50, 50 of. Of us wanting that player, but then, you know, them ultimately choosing to. To play and. And be within, you know, be within our program as well. At the end of the day. [00:10:29] Speaker B: No. And I can speak to that firsthand with having some guys that are on campus. Just, you guys don't rush to make decisions. And it's actually interesting because we always talk about this. We talk about. On the podcast, we talk about it in general. But, you know, there's a couple guys. There's a guy who's going to be a freshman next fall. You got a couple guys that are on campus right now. And once you figured out, you know, we helped get them on your radar, maybe, or you knew they were connected to us. But usually the. The phone call that I've had with you or Mike at the time was, hey, tell me about the kid. [00:11:04] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think he's good. [00:11:07] Speaker B: Like, what kind of kid am I getting is, you know, is it. You guys were in this program. You know what this program means. You know what the pillars of this thing are. Like, is this the type of kid that we want to recruit? And I think that at times, people discount how important that is. And I don't think it's just the Marist thing. Like, it's pretty consistent across college baseball, but those are the conversations that I've had with you. It's usually not like, hey, do you think this kid's good enough? It's like, hey, I think he's good enough. But is this the right type of kid? Like, you know, this place, you know what it takes to be good here? Is this the right type of kid for us? And I. I think it's funny how people discount that. And I know you guys take your time to really get to know a kid. And I've personally seen it where you identify a kid, you do your due diligence to make sure that the initial evaluation was correct, and then you get to like, okay, does this kid fit what we're looking for? [00:12:07] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I. I really do think that that is a major part of it, too. And you know what? I think ultimately, like, we're in the new world of transfer portal and, you know, kids jumping and hopping around. Like, I feel like we're even more into what type of kid it is than ever before, right? And, and this is the thing. All the kids can play. Like you can go to events and find good baseball players anywhere. But the second part of it is the most important part, which is, hey, is this kid going to be a good student, right? Is he going to, is he going to get to your program and then develop, right? Like he's going to have the work ethic, is he going to be a baseball junkie? And then it does. He just fit us, right? Like you know, it, you know, all those teams that hung those banners on our fence, like they're not glitzer glamour kids. They're not all about, you know, social media or they're not all about, you know, you know, obviously we know where we play within our facility that, you know, they're not all about like playing in a stadium or whatever. They're all about just being blue collar, working hard, developing their team. First. Guys, you know, they're not, they're not guys that are just kind of razzle dazzle kids. Like they care more about the game more than anything, right? And then they also care about the opportun and like you can really dissect it and really pick out like, hey, this kid, he's going to be a good figure and you know what, he's going to be a good fit here for four years, right? And he's going to develop or you know what, this kid, I can. The conversations we're having, I think he's going to be here for two years and then he's going to hop and go somewhere else because ultimately I don't think this is the right fit for him or in his mind he's looking for something else. Like you can really dissect it and, and go through it and you know, what type of relationship he has with his family, his friends. Has he jumped around travel teams or high schools. Like you can tell really early on, like this kid's gonna be a Maris guy and hey, he's the one we want, right? Like he's gonna stick here for four years, he's gonna develop, he's gonna get better, he's gonna get good grades. You know, he's gonna be the total Marist guy at the end of the day. But I would say more than ever, you're totally right about that. Like us dissecting the kid is, is probably 75% of it. 20, the first 25% of it is, can the kid play? Will he make us better? Does he bring something to the table? Baseball wise? That's a yes. Okay. But then that back end 75% or maybe the most time you spend is really dissecting what type of person he is and what type of, and what he's looking for as far as. That's the first thing I always ask the kid when we sit down at the table. Like, what are you looking for at the end of the day? Right? And if it doesn't match what we're, what we are or who we are, you know, it's not, it's not going to work. [00:14:57] Speaker B: No, it's such, and obviously this is super close to me and Keith, but like such a special place. Like you get on that campus and it's not hard to fall in love with it, but you gotta, you gotta be in love with being there for four years. I think it's one of those places and I mean, it's inevitable. And I know it's hit you guys and you know, we're, we're plugged into how it all works for the transfer portal and everything. And like you're gonna have some guys that are gonna go, but you want the kid who's bought in to be in a part of that program and is, isn't kind of waffling on whether it's the fit or not. Like, you kind of know when you get there, like, you know, like, yeah, that's the place. That's the place. [00:15:41] Speaker C: But how we sell it, how we sell it too? Like we sell, we got to sell the whole entire campus. Like we got to sell everything, the academics, you know, some of the new buildings that are, that are going up. Like if you want to come here and study business, you know, the new Dyson center is, is, you know, that house is our business school. It's one of the best facilities to learn and to grow as a man. Like, it is incredible our, our campus, you know, being right on the Hudson River. Like, you have to sell that whole entire thing. And you can tell right away when that kid's walking around and they're almost picturing themselves, you know, being there and almost, you know, you know, being a marriage, you know, baseball player or student athlete, as they're walking around, you can tell right away, like, hey, this kid is really into it. You know, this is a place that he wants to be and you can tell, hey, you know, this kid that's walking around, he really, you know, he's not into it. The fit's not there. You know, whether it's the campus that doesn't fit him or, you know, whatever. He's looking for. You can tell right away if they're in or if they're out. [00:16:46] Speaker B: When you got like, Cole and Luke and Andrew, that's exactly how it played out. [00:16:53] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:16:54] Speaker B: They got there and went, that's the place. Like, I want to be there. That's the place I want to be. And I don't know if that happens everywhere, but yeah, Maris is. It's pretty special spot, man. [00:17:08] Speaker C: Yeah, I, I remember Luke's recruiting. Luke was one of those kids that wanted to be a Red Fox more than anything. Right? Like, he, like more than anything in the world. I mean, if we asked him to come back for another event, he would have came back for another event. If we asked him, hey, we need you to get you back to campus. We want to, you know, spend one more day with you. Like, he would have came back. It did not matter. At the end of the day, like, he knew exactly what he wanted. He had it targeted. The same thing with, with Cole, who I'm super excited about tomorrow. I mean, we're about to, about to sign him officially tomorrow, which is, which we're super excited about. But, yeah, they knew right away as they're walking around like, this is the fit for us. And you know, like, you can just, you can, you can feel it and you know, like, hey, this is Luke for the next four years. Like, this is Cole for the next four years. And. And you can just, you can get that drift that they are everything that we're looking for and they're going to be marriage guys at the end of the day. [00:18:08] Speaker B: You mentioned the camps and me and Keith are firm believers in this, that, you know, there's. This gets thrown out, that the on campus camps are money grabs. Right? [00:18:20] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:18:21] Speaker B: And I think that, like, everything there's. There are some. But I think it's schools like Marist and a lot of schools, those camps serve like a legitimate purpose for you guys in the recruiting process. And I'd love to kind of get your perspective on the value they bring and how they've helped you guys either identify guys or kind of finish the evaluation. Like, how do you guys view those from a recruiting perspective? [00:18:48] Speaker C: I think 90% of at least the guys that I've committed here and brought, you know, since I've been back. And then also when I was an assistant here, I would say 90% of them came to at least one of our events and showcased themselves, put themselves, you know, in a. In a place of us targeting them to, To. To make part of a. Part of our Roster. I mean, it all, it all can, it all can happen for you at one of our events. And yes, I, you know, there is a monetary commitment to, to come into one of our events, but we try to make it affordable for people, try to make it affordable for every family. If we are inviting you to our camp, it's not about the numbers. Like we're going to get numbers anyways. There's a number of kids that want to come here and showcase what they like what we're offering here and would love to have an opportunity to play in front of our staff. But if we are pinpointing and asking you to come to camp, there is a reason why. And at the end of the day, it's because we value something that you do. We are targeting something that you do. There's a possibility that you could be within that recruiting class for us, and we utilize it. It is major. Our summer one, I mean our summer one. Even this past year, I think we had the most future games kids, right? Big PBR event, you know, down in Georgia, me and Mike, we spent four, we've spent four days down there, you know, trying to pick out, you know, the best 27s we possibly could and tried to get them, you know, to our August event. We had more futures kids than we ever have had. And you know, a number of them were fitting exactly what we were looking for, you know, when it came to like that evaluation process. Right. And then within that group that came to campus in August, we picked out, you know, the five to six that we wanted to offer early. [00:20:37] Speaker B: Right. [00:20:38] Speaker C: And, and, and, and then get back for our, for a, for unofficial visits. Like, it's, it's definitely something that we utilize. I do hear, you know, about the, you know, money grabs that, you know, that happen. But if we're running an event on campus, there is a reason why we're running that event and ultimately is to build our roster because we've had super success with, with obviously the recruiting process when it comes to bringing guys to campus and having them, you know, showcase their, their abilities at our camps. [00:21:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I think one of the biggest things for college coaches and, and we've talked about it a lot, obviously surrounding our alma mater and this beautiful campus that we, we all currently work on or attended. But I think one of the biggest things, like when, when you're talking about it from a pure recruiting perspective, you have such an advantage when you can get that kid to camp or to campus, excuse me, like, which includes coming to camp. But when you get them to campus Then all of a sudden it's like, wow, okay, like, let me walk around here. I can. You know, especially during the. The school year, too. Like, when there's that buzz on campus and there's people there, it's like, wow, I could really see myself at Marist. And that, like, that moves the needle so much in the recruiting process when kids. When people go to camps. And it's kind of why Andy and I, you know, I don't want to say we push it on people, but, like, when you start to narrow it down, like, hey, go to camp. Because if you, like, you want to go to that camp and. And go to that campus and see if that fits you, because you could walk on a campus and be like, yeah, no, this. This isn't. [00:22:14] Speaker B: This isn't it. [00:22:14] Speaker A: And you'd rather know then than in September when you get there and you're like, yo, this. This is not for me. And now you're restarting the whole process. But, like, I always had that thought when I was at rpi, like, if I could get them to campus and show them all the stuff that we had, I won that battle nine times out of 10. And I feel like it's a similar kind of sentiment that. That I'm hearing from you. Like, if we can get them to campus, we have a really, really good shot of landing these kids in getting them to school. And selfishly, I don't know how you walk on that campus and be like, I don't want to go anywhere else, but, like, I mean, there's some truth to it. Where I think, like, that's where I think a little bit of that misnomer of the camps. And there are camps out there that are money grabs, but, you know, the reality is that the vast majority of them serve a super valid recruiting function for the program. That suit that, that goes beyond just the evaluation and getting to know the kid, because, yeah, you might really like the kid, the kid likes you, but he shows up on campus like, yo, I don't think this place is for me. Kim's not for me. The school's not for me. Like, I mean, like, no hard feelings. Thanks for letting us know. Now we can move on instead of dragging it out. We don't know, like, it's. But it serves a vital function, I think, in the recruiting process that when you find these camps that are not money grabs, which the vast majority of them are not, like, you can find the right fit faster in that process for yourself. [00:23:44] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. I even think, you know, if I'm a. If I'm a kid right now. Right. If I'm a 27, I think the best thing. Yeah, there's a couple main events that you should do. Like, if you're a New Jersey kid, you know, doing Garden State games, you know, maybe doing one PBR event, you know, within the New Jersey area, just to get recognized for the very first time. And then from there, you know, you're gonna get, you know, invites from different places. And then I think after you start to get invited by five to five to seven places. Look at those five or, you know, five to seven places. Narrow it down to, hey, these four places, they fit me academically. They fit how far away from home I want to go to school. They fit, you know, maybe the division that I. That I'm. That I think that my ability plays the best, Right. Whether it's Division 1, Division 2, Division 3, and then I think exactly what you're saying. Go to campus and experience that for an entire day. Most of these camps, just like ours, we tour the kids. You know, they're able to see your facilities. They spend the whole entire day with you. We have our own players that are working the vet. They can. They can talk to our guys about anything. Hey, how's residence life? How's the food here? I was living in the area. Hey, do you live off campus? Do you live on. How is it, like, in the dorms? You know, there's. There's so much information you can get from. From just going to camp to find out, hey, this is a place that I want to play at. You go to that camp, you play well, you get evaluated by the staff again. Evaluated again by the staff. And, you know, it's a. It's a good fit on their end. It's a good fit on your end. And then, hey, you're picking. This is one of your options that you might have at the end of the day that is either going to offer you, you know, or, you know, or at least be one of those options that you might choose to play college ball at. But I think that's the best way to attack this as a recruit, for sure. [00:25:33] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think you bring up a lot of really good points like that most people don't probably think about on the front end of the recruitment process, right? Like the. The dorms, the food, the area. What's the team like? What are the coaches like? I think a lot of people kind of attack the first end of, like, okay, I just want to be recruited. What does that mean? What does that entail what do I want out of my college experience? What do. What does this look like? Do I want to go to a place that, you know, I, yeah, I'm going to play Division 1 baseball, but we're going to get our teeth kicked in for 46 games or go to a place where, like, we legitimately are going to compete to go to regionals? Or does that mean I want to go play Division 2? Maybe you're a super high end academic kid and you want to go play Division 3 baseball somewhere. Like, yeah, it doesn't matter. But I like those high level service things I think are a lot easier to figure out in, like, at the start of your recruiting process and maybe like the initial couple steps of it. But I think some of the things that you just nailed about talking about, like, with players on the team, about, you know, what is it like in the dorms? What's it like? Can you live off campus? Like, is. Is there baseball guys that live off campus together? Like, do the freshmen live to get, like, all of those types of things? Because not everyone does it and everyone does it differently. So you want to find out what fits best for you. And I do think, like, you're dead right. We had kids work our camp. I know Andy talked about kids working William Aircamp, stuff like that. Like, the kids aren't going to lie to you. Like, they're going to tell you the absolute God's honest truth, and you will get blatant honesty out of them when it comes to that stuff. And it. It forms your recruiting process of, like, is this the place for me? And I think that authenticity from the kids and from the coaching staff plays up, obviously, and in the recruiting process. But all of those things are things that, that actually do matter, that you're going to have to figure out, you know, obviously, how much does it matter to you? Right? Like, does the door. Is the dorm a deal breaker for me or. That's up to each and every individual person. But those are questions that you got to ask to kind of take that dive when you get to that next step. And I'm glad you brought that stuff up because I don't think we've really talked about that on the podcast before. But it is, though, like, when you get deeper in the recruiting process, those nuances and those, the minutia that you can get into to what actually, like, what you really want out of your process do matter before you make that ultimate decision to say yes. [00:28:03] Speaker C: Yeah, I actually like how you said that, like, front end, especially when you're first getting into it, whether if you're a 27 or 28 right now, what do you want in your college experience? It's so funny when we start our visits and we sit down in the skybox before we even tour the kid, right? We're bringing a kid on for an unofficial. We have, we have one next Monday, right? We'll sit down in that skybox verse before we tour and I'll ask that kid, like, what do you want in this whole thing? Like, what are you looking for? What is important to you? And sometimes the kids never thought about it. A lot of the kids that are up to the next level, they do think about it. And then I always talk about like everybody has a mental checklist, right? It could be five things. It could be, I want to, I want to be at a place where I can get on the field right away. I want to. If it's a two way, we've heard guys say, you know, I want an opportunity to pitch and hit. You know, I want to be at a place where we're going to compete for championships. I want to get a first class business degree. Like kids sometimes have that mental checklist. But I do like how you said that like be front end first, especially early in your career. What are things you like and what is your fit? Find those five or six places that you think fit your game and you academically everything that's in your mental checklist and then go to their events. Like that's the first thing, right? Five or six places that you like and fit you. I mean then your next step is to try to get in front of those coaching staffs and see if it's a fit on their end as well as far as, you know, how their roster is, what they're recruiting, you know, and then if that, that's the thing when we find our, our school, it's when they're looking for exactly what you're looking for and you guys are meeting in the middle and that's when it becomes a fit and ultimately, you know, your college choice. [00:29:46] Speaker B: I think the other benefit that sometimes gets overlooked when you're talking about going to an on campus camp and it's a reason that we believe in them. Having been in your shoes and knowing what the value is like intrinsically about, you know, having a kid on campus but you're going to have what, 40, maybe 60 kids at a camp. [00:30:08] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:30:09] Speaker B: Usually get a pretty good eval and a lot of times, like if you're early in the process, say you're 27 and Maris is a school that you want to be at. So you guys had a camp in September. Yep. And they go and they perform. And I'm able to reach out to you and say, hey, Lance, what'd you think of this kid? And you give me feedback like, hey, this is what I think he does well. This is what I think he needs to work on. He's not right there for us yet, but I'll be interested to see where he is in six months. People discount how important it is to get a lay of the land and to get some feedback on where do you fit. Right. Because there's a couple things that I think people miss, is that I don't think they understand how high the bar is to play college baseball at any level right now, never mind playing at the Division 1 level. And a lot of people haven't seen it. They don't know what a Marist arm looks like. They don't know what a Mac middle infielder looks like. The things that you need to be able to do to be good in that conference. Right. Because they see the College World Series and then they just assume there's a huge drop off. [00:31:18] Speaker C: Yeah. Between those schools that are there and. [00:31:19] Speaker B: Then everybody else not realizing that the bar is really high. In most 27s, they're eight or nine months away from getting recruited because they need to get better. But if you go to one of these camps early and you get legitimate feedback. I got a 60 time. I got an evaluation of my offense. I got an evaluation on my defense, I got a bullpen evaluation. Well, now I know here's where I'm at. Here's how the baseball world at that level views me. If I want to get to Marist and I'm a right handed pitcher and I'm 83 to 85 with an okay breaking ball. I'd rather know that I need to get better now and I need to get to that 6 to 9 range. The breaking ball has got to get a little bit better. I got to be able to manage the running game. That's the stuff that people don't necessarily want to hear, but it's really what drives development. You got to know where you're at. [00:32:14] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. I think sometimes, too. Like, we've recruited kids that we've seen multiple times. Like, we've recruited kids and got kids on our roster that maybe didn't perform well in a fall camp, but then we saw them later in the summer and their bodies changed and things changed and they Made those improvements, and then, like, we did want them in July, right? It might not have been, like, a quick trigger. Let's just say at 27, right, he came to our September event. We need to see a little bit more. He didn't run good enough. You know, we don't know if he moves like a Division 1 player. And then we go watch him in the spring, and then we see him in the early part of the summer, and he is moving like we need him to move, right? He made adjustments because, like, that's the. That's the piece. People, I think right now, guys are like, oh, I went to their camp, they didn't offer me. That means they didn't like me. I'm out. I'm moving on. Rather than taking the information that, you know, the evaluation says, which is, hey, we need to see it move better. We need to see him do this. We need to see him, you know, be better with his off speed in the zone. Like, there's. There's tons of things that guys are two years away from, right? Especially if they're 27, they got two years left to develop before they're going to be on a college campus. That just getting, like, that base evaluation is. It is major. It really does tell you exactly where you stand. And, you know, if it's Maris telling you that, hey, breaking ball needs some work or you need to move better, Fairfield's probably telling you the same thing. Going to px, probably telling you the same thing. And then you kind of know what level. Like, hey, if I want to be at this level, these are the adjustments I gotta make. [00:33:52] Speaker B: The other thing, too, is it to your point? You see a kid in September, and then you see him at a high school game or a workout eight months later. [00:34:01] Speaker C: Eight months later? Yep. [00:34:03] Speaker B: Eight months later. And it's like, oh, wow, that's a different kid. That's another piece of the puzzle. Because you're looking at it going, at least this is how I viewed it, all right, that kid got after it a little bit. That breaking ball got better. Like, he's not topping out at 86 anymore. Like, everything that comes out of his hand is 87, 88. Like, that kid did something. And that clues you into, all right, he's willing to work a little bit. Like, it's kind of the bare minimum. Me and Keith talk about this all the time. Like, what it takes to be on campus, right? And how to. How to effectively be a part of a college baseball team. And the bare minimum that's required of you the bare minimum when you get to campus is what most kids, they don't even get quite to that in high school in terms of the level of commitment they have to the weight room, the level of commitment they have to their bodies, the amount of time that they're going to spend. But if you see a kid make that jump over the course of six or eight months, that's a little clue that, like, that kid's probably got something in him. He got a little bit of fire, he took some feedback, he ran with it, he got better. That makes you feel good about that kid being able to do that when he gets to campus. [00:35:14] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it shows because that's the thing. I don't think we're getting finished products here. Like, it's just, that's just how it is. It probably was the same way for you guys when you guys were here. Like, you guys probably had a little bit more finished products when you guys were rolling pretty good and going to regionals. But here, like, we gotta, you know, like, we're, we're looking at guys and we're evaluating them, but also we're seeing the future a little bit. Like, hey, is it the right kid that's a baseball guy that, you know, cares about just developing, right? Like, what's their work ethic, like, what's their plans, like in the off season? And yeah, you can see guys make jumps. I, dude, Luke Monaco, man, made major jumps during that process. You know, it just. Because the first evaluation they had for me when, you know, I saw him was like, he's small, right? He's small. I don't know if he's, he's big enough to play at our level. And then you see the strength piece start to happen and then the speed stuff starts to happen. And then, like, I remember seeing him like maybe five months later after me and you had talked to him and cost, you know, sold me on him a little bit bit. And then you see the improvements and then you see the production that he had, and then you're like, oh, man, like the works there. He's a gym rat. I mean, he's in a. He grew up in a, you know, being, being in a baseball family that, you know, his dad runs a facility. Like, there's. He is going to live and breathe baseball and he's the right fit for us because we know when he comes here, he's going to work and we've already seen him make one jump, he's going to make another one. And you know what's funny? We Blink our eyes. Probably three years later now, Andy, and he's made another jump. And, you know, he's. He's gonna be an absolute production horse for us over the next course of the next three years of his career. Like, it's 1,000% correct. [00:37:02] Speaker B: And those are the stories that I think they get overlooked sometimes. And where you see a kid be really good, like, and, you know, Luke's got to prove himself this spring. Like, I know he had a good fall, you know, and guys have to go and prove it, but when they go out and prove that they're good, what people miss is all this stuff that had to be done in order for them to. [00:37:22] Speaker C: In between. Yep. [00:37:23] Speaker B: Just see the cool stuff on Twitter and on social media, and you see the home runs or the doubles or the velocity. But what a lot of people don't see is the time that it took to get there, the effort, the consistency that it took to get there. And to your point, you got to get some unfinished guys, and you got to coach them up and develop them. Like, that's just the nature of college baseball at pretty much every level. Like, even the highest levels, it's hard to be good as a freshman. [00:37:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:55] Speaker B: Freshmen who go on the field and play every day, they're way fewer than people realize. And that learning curve, the development curve, like, 17 to 20 kids make ridiculous physical jumps, and you got to bet on some of those guys, and I think what makes them tick is it's kind of what's. What's between their ears. Like, you were talking about, we had finished products. I think we just had a bunch of tough dudes who really like to compete. Like, and I know Rakuya, I know Joe, who we're gonna have on the podcast soon, was kind of busting our balls when we. When we came up. And, like, yeah, we didn't have the most talented team, but what we did have is that everybody was tough and we competed our butts off, and we. And you sprinkle in some talent. But I think that that's a recipe, and I think it's what separates guys at the next level. Like, guys who can compete, guys who can show up consistently and deal with the inevitable ups and downs of playing college baseball. Like, most dudes don't just walk out there and just roll the pole or just go dice people up every single weekend without that Monday through Friday grind and, like, the commitment to what they need to do. And I think that sometimes that gets missed. You see the flashy stuff now with social media, but you miss what guys are doing to get there this 6am I don't know if you guys still do it, but, like, the 6:00am lifts and the. The sprint work in the gym. It used to be the gray gym. The gray gym's way better now. [00:39:26] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:39:30] Speaker B: Yeah. We used to hit in the Boom Boom Room, which was the. Which was the racquetball courtroom. [00:39:36] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, we had the padlock on it. I always explained that. I always explained that. Yeah, man. Had the padlock on it and hung a cage in there like that. That. Like, that's Maris baseball. [00:39:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I went. [00:39:49] Speaker A: I went back. Side note, when I was back, probably like nine years ago, like, I think it was the same lock. I tried to. Like, I tried and it unlocked and I was like, no way. [00:40:00] Speaker B: Randy's still running the show back there. [00:40:03] Speaker C: 1,000%. Mm. [00:40:05] Speaker A: No, but, like, I think that you're. All of this stuff is true. And I. Lance, I think you hit on something that I think a lot of people miss in the recruiting process. And you guys were, you know, you hit on it and you talked about it like, if you're a 27 right now, you're legit. Like, you're not playing a college baseball game for two and a half years. If you are playing as a freshman. You know what I mean? Like, It's November of 2025. You're going to be finishing your fall around this time in two years. The amount. The amount of how much you can get better over the course of the next two years is. Is astronomically high. So, you know, I think that there's. We dance around it sometimes. Like, you know, and. And I think you're 100% right, that people look at it like, I didn't get an offer, so they don't like me, so I'm moving on. It's like, well, no, like, I didn't say that we don't like you. I'm just saying that, like, you do these things well that we value, but these things that we also need you to be able to do, to be a member of this program, need to improve, and this is what we would need to see for that to happen. And I think that that's. It's a valuable piece. And Andy and I talk about it of how, like, getting. Taking that feedback and being able to use it in your process to get you to where you want to go and, you know, just, you know, yes, guys get after it. But the maturation, to your point, Andy, of kids that are from 16 to 18 is huge. You know, there's not a lot of 16 year olds out there that are going to be benching £200. I don't know, maybe they are nowadays, but like by the time they're 18, like they might be benching to 30, I don't know. But like, and that's part of that is yeah, getting after. The other part is just them getting bigger physically and maturing body wise. And this is a weird game from the standpoint of like, you don't necessarily, you can, you can be a Division 1 player and not be the most physically gifted dude in the world. Like, it's not like football where like you kind of got to be big, you got to be shredded. You got to run a 4 4. Like we could take a guy who's 58 and runs a 62 and can get back to ball and run balls down in the outfield. And we could also take a guy who's 64 and shredded, looks like he was built, you know, chiseled out of stone, who we can stick at first base, who's just going to, you know, jump the yard every time and you know, a threat to jump the yard every time gets up. Or you could be a dumpy body and do it like, you know, it's a weird game that way. But like, I think part of it is like the maturation but like, people lose sight of the fact of like, you know, yes, they're like, you can look at guys and we've all seen them, you know what they look like. Sure fire Division one guys. When you go see it, like, you watch their action to see how they move, it's like, yeah, that dude's gonna, it's just a matter of where. But the vast majority of people, it's like, yeah, there's something there. If that first step can get quicker or we get a little bit more bat speed or we get a little bit stronger, like there's something there. And it becomes on the kid to be able to kind of make that jump. But like that, that, that time space, I think people, people miss out on that time space of like, I want to commit, I want to know where I'm going, I want to do this. And we're so sped up to do that stuff instead of like, what do I have to do in order to get to where I want to go and understanding that it's, you know, when you, you still have two and a half years before you even play a college baseball game. You have two years before you even set this more or less, you know what I Mean, like, at that point, it's like you have 20, let's call it 22, 21 months before you set foot on a college campus. Like, that is an extraordinarily amount of time. Like, I have a four year old, I don't know what he was doing 21 months ago. It is a blur to me for sure. We have a, what is she, 13? She's 1112 weeks old now. Like, I don't even know what she was doing eight weeks ago. It is an extraordinary amount of time. Like, it is like, there's a lot of stuff that goes on and I think that, like, we lose sight of that sometimes a in the recruiting process as coaches. Like, that was the one thing that, you know, a former mentor of mine told me and like, it really stuck out in my mind of like, yeah, but he's not going to play a game for you for two and a half years. And I was like, oh, wow, that's true. I never thought about it that way. And I think like, Andy and I talk about this all the time. We're like, listen, man. And I know it's a little bit tougher with, with rosters and roster construction at the Division 1 level, going to 34, December 1and stuff like that. But like, you know, if you pop and you're going to be 89, 92, 93 in September of next year, you're going to find a place on a Division 1 roster to go pitch in college. Or, you know, conversely, if like all of a sudden you grow and you know, like, you can roll the pole and you're really good, like, you're going to find a place. Like, we're never really done recruiting. Like, we can find a place for that guy because, like. And I think this gets lost too, and I'm sorry, I'm on a little bit of a soapbox here. Like, the recruiting aspect and people lose this, lose sight of this as well, is like, it's not to maintain the status quo, it's to continually get better and to continually raise your floor. And if you can bring guys in that might raise your floor, like, that means your program is elevating itself. Where, like, my floor was here, now it's here. And then my ceiling is becoming higher too. And I think that people lose sight of that sometimes. We're like, yeah, man, it might be late, but if you popped and you're good, like, you're going to be able to find yourself a spot on a roster somewhere. [00:45:35] Speaker C: Yeah. And for us, like, I can tell all 27s out there. We will not be done with our recruiting class come next September. Like, we, like, we will be one spot away. We'll be two spots away. Like, and we're sitting right here. We just got 127. Literally 30 minutes before we got on this podcast. We got, we got 127, right? We will still be recruiting that class come next September, fall for our fall event. Guarantee it. Guarantee we will be one or two guys away still. It was kind of funny. We even talked tonight about it. Like, we just got, we just got a 27. And exactly what I said, I, I said, hey, you know, based on all the 27s we've seen and we've gotten to campus, I think we're, I think we're at a point where, not that we're throwing the brakes on, right? But it's almost like I want to see some of these guys develop and we want to see what type of spring and what type of high school stuff is going to happen next. Right? Like, I'm not ready to make decisions on, on any 27s right now. Like, it's almost like we need to see more from these guys like that, like that evaluation from camp. Like we told some guys, like, you got to move better, you got to be better with the third pitch. We want to see the jump a little bit. Like, we've had those evaluations with guys and I'm willing to wait now, right? As you know, as a head Division 1 coach, I want to go see some of those evaluations we gave the guys. I want to see if guys developed and took that next step because they could be the fit for our class come next spring. [00:47:05] Speaker B: I think that that's a trickle down effect of some of the rules that have been put in. And it's the stuff. [00:47:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:47:09] Speaker B: Don't want to talk about. Like, we have this, we have this propensity to focus on the negative. Oh, well, the rosters are going from 40 to 34. There's less guys, the transfer portal, everybody's hopping, blah, blah, blah, which all gets, you know, it all gets really hyperbolic or really negative real quick. But to your point, you guys are in a spot. And like, high school players need to realize this, that what it's really done for coaches, and I'm speaking for myself, so you tell me if you disagree. What I think it's really done for coaches is it's given you the opportunity to act decisively on guys that you feel really good about and be patient with guys that you're not sure about where you go back five or six years ago, especially at the highest levels of Division one, it was go get everybody you think is good. We'll sort it out later. [00:48:01] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. They're just taking everybody. [00:48:04] Speaker B: Yeah, there's still a little bit of that that's going to go on. And you're always going to see it. You're going to see next summer, you're going to see the 27 who gets, you know, dumped in September. You see it happen this year, that's never going to completely go away. I think it has done with the reduction in rosters that you have to account for the transfer portal, because you're probably going to lose some guys, good, bad, or ugly. Right. Hopefully it's not so many Ethan Conrad's and it's some guys that just. It wasn't going to be the right fit. Right. And that happens. We' guys every year when I was there, guys who, hey, this just isn't the right fit for me. I'm going to go somewhere else that happens. The transfer portal is good in that sense that you might have a guy who's the 34th guy on your roster and he comes in and says, hey, coach, like, thank you for the opportunity, but I just. I want to go play somewhere, and I don't know if I'm going to play much here. Good. Good on you. That kid can go make a move, and that's a good thing. But I think that, and I've heard this from a bunch of different coaches that if we don't feel like a dude can help us almost today, we got time, because to your point, who knows what's going to happen in nine months? There's definitely a kid who's going to pop up on your radar in June, that you had no idea that that kid existed. You need to go, that kid's a. [00:49:20] Speaker C: Really good fit for us, 1,000%. [00:49:22] Speaker B: And it happens all the time. And most 27s, they're gonna get recruited next June, July, August, September. [00:49:33] Speaker C: Yeah, 80% of that class. It'll happen for them, right. In the months that you're talking about, right? Like, because there's so much. There's so much time. Keith even said it, like, there's so much time. [00:49:44] Speaker B: Right. [00:49:45] Speaker C: Some guys are late bloomers, some guys are, you know, they'll grow, they'll put on weight. Some guys will grow 2 inches before this coming summer. Like, there's so much time for that class. [00:49:55] Speaker B: Well, you don't have to rush with the eval because, like, to your point, you're talking about, like, well, this kid's pretty good, but I could watch him play a full high school season. What's he going to do in high school? You know, is he going to. Is he going to go be a really good player in high school? Because that's the other thing that gets. Gets missed sometimes is that kids are so intent on getting recruited that they lose sight of the fact that you need to be recruitable first. And part of being recruitable is, like, the first step to playing in college is you need to be a pretty darn good high school player. [00:50:29] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. That's funny. [00:50:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. You know, yeah, there's some 27s right now that are chomping at the bit to get recruited who've never played varsity baseball before. [00:50:40] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, 1000%. [00:50:43] Speaker B: I get it. You got to have that carrot out in front of you. But how many guys that are on Marist roster right now weren't really good high school players. [00:50:54] Speaker C: Very far, far in between? Yeah, they. You got to produce at that level first before you can produce at our level. It was so funny. We had pro day two weeks ago, right, and we had a couple guys, like, show out really well. And I remember one of the young guys came up to me was like, oh, man. Like, is it. He did this. Like, is he going to get drafted? I'm like, what? Going to get drafted? What from. From scout seeing him for the last 45 minutes, like, dude, this just gets you into the game, right? You doing something, throwing hard one time, throwing a good bullpen, throwing a baseball from the outfield at 95, hitting a baseball hard, right? That all that does is just gives that opportunity for that scout to come back and watch you so that the player or the tool matches the product production, right? Like, ultimately, to be a pro, you have to play well at. In. At the college level. No one's just, oh, man, he's. He's 92, 94. He's getting drafted because he's that, like, no, you got to match the production with what type of tools you're putting out there. And that's the same thing that we're doing at the college level. Yeah, you watch the kid at a showcase, and then we got to see him. See in high school, if he's. Is he the best player on his high school team, right? Like, is he the. One of the best players in his high school league? Like, is he one of the best players in the state? Like, you got to produce at the end of the day, too Right. Like it's got a match. And I think kids forget that too. [00:52:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Because if you can't produce at the high school level, it doesn't get. Keith always talks about this. It doesn't get any easier. [00:52:31] Speaker A: No, like it, we would have this conversation all the time when I was at rpi. Right. Like it doesn't get easier when you get the pro ball. It certainly does not get easier when you get to the big leagues. Like, this isn't high school anymore. We're into the 8% of guys that are playing college baseball. So we're taking like 92% of people who played high school baseball are now gone. Like we're taking the top eight and now we're competing against them. So like, just numbers alone would tell me this is going to be a little bit harder than what it was when I was in high school. And you know, then what is it? 1% that go on to play professionally and then less than 1 that make to the big leagues. Like, there's a reason there's only been 23,000 plus big leaguers in the history of the game. It's, it's hard to do when you're competing against the world. Like nowadays you got guys, like, you got guys. There are 97 at 102 throwing 92 mile an hour Snapdragon sliders with. I mean, we have guys throwing 92 mile an hour change ups. Like, yeah, man, you threw 92. 94. Awesome. There's dudes in the big leagues that are. The Change up is 92. What are we doing here? You know, like, and there's places for all of that. But like, I think that there's, it's a, it's a hard concept I think for people. And this is, this is going to sound, for lack of a better. I don't even know this, this probably is going to come. This might come off the wrong way and I don't mean it to, but the reason that we do this podcast and the reason that we, you know, the vast, the main reason we started this was for educational purposes for people to be able to kind of listen to all this stuff and discern what's true and what's not right. But like the thing that I struggle with at the, you know, the parent and the high school and the youth level is the vast majority of people have no idea what it actually takes to just get to college to play a sport. It doesn't matter what sport, but to get to play the sport. Right. I think it's hard sometimes because we like, we talk about this, the three of us and the other people, the other coaches we've interviewed. We know what it takes because we did it. We know what it takes to get to the, you know, to play professionally because we've coached guys who have done it. Like, maybe not personally from, like, we didn't play there, but, like, we know what it takes. We know the talent. We know that type of stuff. Like, we see this game differently than your regular person who just watches the Yankees every night and then complains that Aaron Boone should be fired because he's a terrible manager. Like, we see all, everything. We see this game through a completely different lens than your, your regular person. And I don't mean that negatively. Like, this is, like, this is. Was our chosen career path for, you know, 12 years for Andy, 16 for me. You know, you've been in this for a very long time. [00:55:23] Speaker C: Over 10 years. Yep. [00:55:25] Speaker B: Right. [00:55:25] Speaker A: Like, you know, we have 30 pushing 40 years of experience, like, at a high level of doing this. And like, I think that it's, it falls on deaf ears sometimes about a. How hard it is and what it takes to do it. And then like, the trust of like, hey, man, we think you. Like, we like these things. Do, like your evaluation point. Like, these are the things we like about you, but we need to see this out of you. Like, it's not a knock, it's not a complete negative. It's just this is what it takes. And they're actually giving you free advice for the most part of what it takes, what it's going to take for you to get to the next level. And it's not, you know, it's not a, you know, I think sometimes people, you know, look, view that through a negative lens of like, well, they don't like me. Like, no, it's not. They don't like you. Like, you're actually getting really good feedback on what it is you have to do. Now it's on you to decide whether or not you want to do this. And that's where you get into, like, and where I think it, it. It's a benefit from a coaching standpoint because now you can go see, like, did this kid put in the work to do it? Because if he didn't, then, like, you know, right away, like, yo, that's kid's not a kid for our program. Like, he didn't do anything. He didn't do it. He didn't put in the time. He didn't put in the effort. But if he did it, like, hey, man, there's something there. And look, you still might be short, like, and that, that's the hard part in the recruiting process. Like, you still might be short to go play at Marist, you still might be short to go play at Quinnipiac, but there's still plenty of other options out there for you to go play college baseball. It doesn't mean you're worse. It just doesn't fit at that level. And that's fine. Like, it's. This is, this is a hard game. This is a hard. It's a hard thing to do. And again, you're in the 8%. So like, you have to be able to, to stand out amongst them. And, you know, the, the work ethic, the compete factor, the, the makeup, all of those things factor into these decisions like we've been talking about. And I, I think some of those things get lost, especially in today's day and age of like, exit velo and how hard I throw the ball and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, yeah, man, you could hit 103 off a tee, but like, can you hit a, you know, can you hit a slider? Like, is there adjustability in your swing? Like, can you only hit fastballs middle in? Because if they throw a fastball middle away and you can't handle it, like, you know, I, we're gonna have to talk about a lot of other things in order to find you, like to get you success or work on more. And it's. We, we get so caught up in those things because it's so out there where it's like, you still have to go play the game. To your point about high school, basically, like, when the lights are on and whether it's college or you want to get drafted or it's high school and you want to get recruited, like, when the lights are on, you still got to go play, man. Like, and that's like your, your numbers have to match up to the production, like you said, to steal your line. Like, they have to match up because if they don't, then it's going to be really hard to play at any level, whether be it all be a college or, or professionally. [00:58:27] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. When I was in the cape, it's funny, you know, Will Smith, we had Will Smith my first summer in the cape. I mean, he's got, you know, three World Series rings now and, you know, possibly one of the best catchers of like our era right here. Right. You know, he's kind of growing into it. And I remember someone asking me, like, like, like, what's it like those first couple of days when you're in the Cape, and I said, like, everybody, everybody looks the same, right? Like everyone's to that point, you know, we're talking about like the percentage of really good college players now that get a chance to go to the Cape Cod League. Like that first couple days when we're practicing and we're working out. Like, you're talking about mid major guys, you know, power four guys, you know, some division two and division three guys that are getting opportunities to be out there with some of the best players in the country too. I always say this, like, those first couple days, they all look the same. They all hit the ball hard. All the pitchers are all 90 plus, you know, some guys, you know, I would say probably half the staff is 95 plus. All right? But then you start to get to the middle of the summer and you can tell like what guys are producing at a high level no matter what, right? Whoever's on the mound, whoever's in the box, like when the lights are on, these dudes are separating their game right from bp. They might all look the same during bp. It doesn't matter. Lights turn on. These five guys or these four guys, they're separating themselves to like the, the upper echelon of what the draft's going to look like come, you know, that following spring. Like, you can tell. And it's the same thing, you know, as we go through it here, like we're going to go to an event and there's going to be a number of guys that are all 95 +ex Avilo. There's going to be arms that are all out there that are 86 to 88. Like you have to play the game at the end of the day. And that's, that's the stuff that, you know, I actually value the most, right? Like, is this guy just plays the game at a high level, high IQ guy. Like every time I come to a game, he's going to do something, right, to help his team win. Like, I'm, I'm for that, right? Like, that's kind of my first priority. And then we kind of look and say, like, does he move like a Division 1 player, right? The way he gets out of the box, like, does he, does he glide into second base or is he struggling to get the second base? Like, like all those things, like then as, like those almost like those tools start to match the production, that's when we make decisions just as far as them on the baseball field. And then I think that second piece is like, are they the right fit person? You know, personality wise, academically, all those things, like that's like that back half 75% that I was talking about. But, you know, I think it's the exact same evaluation setup that, you know is within pro ball, that's within what we're trying to do at the college level, especially at the Division 1. [01:01:17] Speaker B: Now you've been around it long enough and you're out at the Cape, and obviously you've been embarrassed both as an assistant, as a. And as a head coach, and you've coached some really good players. Like, you're talking about like a kind of dovetailing off your conversation about the Cape outs. Like, everybody kind of like, if you're out there, you're really good, or I should say, you're really talented, right? There's nobody out there. Or very rarely does somebody show up and you're like, man, you don't belong here. From a talent perspective, any commonalities you see in the guys who are able to separate themselves where the talent's the same, right? I'm sure there were catchers out there who had better pop times and ran better than Will Smith and did stuff like that. Like anything that you've seen in your years that you think separates guys and allows them to reach that in game production, that, that level of performance that is needed to really stick out. [01:02:18] Speaker C: It's never anything super physical, right? Like, it's always like, he's really tough. I think hitters wise, like, when you go out to the Cape, like, the pitching that, you know is on the mound is just incredible every night, like, everybody has ridiculous stuff, you know, every hour, every fastball is going to be 95 plus. But then like, you get to the secondary stuff, breaking balls, changeups, you know, guys are all in the zone and filling it up as well. Like, it's a hard league to hit. I mean, even the facilities that you're playing at, like you're playing night games and the lights are dim, things like that. Like, guys that separate themselves and hit well, like, their quality at bats are like astronomical. Like, the way that they get into counts, the, the. The ability to spit on, you know, like a chase breaking ball. I think the best hitters that always hit in the Cape and always produce, like, they're able to push pitchers into a corner of getting the pitch that they want. And when they get the picture they want, they just, they don't miss it. You know, it's almost like the hard contact rate, you know, for the guys that when the Lights turn on. Like, that's what pops out to me when I'm. When I'm viewing, hey, like, this guy's separating himself versus, you know, someone else that, you know, maybe comes up a little short. Like, their ability to really think through at bats and produce that a big way because. And I don't. It's hard to. It's hard to almost put your nail on it, but the best hitters in the world, I even think in the big league level, man, like, they're able to push pitchers into a corner and, you know, get into hitters counts and, you know, they just don't miss the pitch that, you know, that they're trying to drive. And they always do something with that ball as far as squaring it up, but they're. They push pitchers into a corner. Like, that's the best way to describe it across the board, 1,000%. [01:04:14] Speaker A: Do you. [01:04:15] Speaker B: Do you think some of those guys were able to do it? Did you get any inclination that some of those guys prepare better? [01:04:22] Speaker C: They watch the game? Yeah, I think they watch the game really well. They pick up on stuff really well. They communicate with their coaching staff, too, and. And maybe the guy on deck, like, hey, what are you seeing? Like, what is this guy doing? And then also, like, it's kind of cliche, but their work ethic and, like, are they baseball junkies? I mean, I think being out there for two months, like, it gets monotonous. It gets boring at times. Like, there's, you know, it's. It's baseball every single day. But the dudes that really love it, man, like, their early work, their consistency, you know, they don't miss, you know, when. When there's extra swings, you know, being given out and. And then, like, you see, like, let's just say, like, a guy's going through something like, like a bad valley, right? Or, you know, maybe there's a couple of games where things don't go their way. Like, their ability to bounce back, you know, Zach Netto was really good, you know. You know, with just going through struggles, but making sure, like, if he had two or three bad games in a row, like, he was able to almost, like, fix the problem and then string four or five good ones in a row. So his ability to do that. Spencer Jones the same way, like, Spencer Jones is one of those ones that showed up and he took his evaluation and ran away with it, right? Like, you know, people thought that, you know, he was a. He was a player that, you know, that didn't elevate the Baseball enough, right? Like, too many ground outs for, for, you know, a middle of the order bat. Like, we need to see you drive the baseball. Like, he was in the cage for early work, working on that evaluation of trying to prove people wrong or trying to, to rewrite his, his player evaluation. Like, he was one of those ones that came into the cape ready to make, you know, major strides. And I remember him telling me when he showed up, like, hey, I got to get better at this, because I think scouts think this about me. So, like, he had it in his head and, and you know, he was in this mode of really proving people wrong, like, and not being like, oh, they don't like me. So it is what it is. He almost like didn't accept it. And those guys, it's cliche saying it, but the guys that are just baseball junkies and, and really, really love just being in the cage and living in the cage and living at the field, you know, 24 7. [01:06:39] Speaker B: The resiliency, I think, is huge. Yeah, to your point, like, the higher you go, the easier it is to fall in. Those valleys can get deeper quick because you can really slide, especially offensively. Like, I think it's a little bit easier to write the ship offense or on the mound if you got good stuff, if you kind of figure out how to get back in the zone and you can get away with some stuff if you velocity or really good breaking ball or stuff. But the offensive side, it's such a grind, especially when you're in a league like that or just in college in general. Like, you're gonna have some moments where it's not gonna go good, but the, the really good hitters don't have, they don't have long stretches where they struggle. [01:07:25] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it's short. It's very short. And yeah, you're right. I think offensively it's, it's definitely harder for, for the, for a position player to, to go out there. It's hard. I mean, every single guy that's, that's. That you're going to face is a weekend guy, right? And then the guys that they're bringing out of the pen are weekend guys. Like, it's, it's. It's the best pitchers in the country. Like, you're not. There's no cupcakes, there's no, oh, man, this guy's getting a start. Like, this is my time to kind of get my game together. Like, there's none of that. Every single guy you're facing is an ace from some college football program that you're going to face every single night. And you're right. Like the good players, they shorten up, you know, the struggles, and then they're able to group together, like, really good valleys of good and string together really good valleys of highs. So by the end of the summer, I mean, they're putting together a summer that, you know, they can look at and scouts can look at and say, oh, man, like this dude, he produces in a big way over 60 games. This guy's a first rounder. [01:08:30] Speaker B: Not many of them walking around, but they're there and they're special when you see them. Yeah, saw a couple of those coaching against uva when I was at William and Mary, where you get, you get to the field and you're like, that dude's just like little different than everybody else on a field of studs. You're like, boy, there's something, there's something different about that young man. But no, I mean, it's, baseball's hard. Like, it's freaking hard, man. And it's, I think it's, you know, a lot of people talk about the game is different or, you know, you hear these old heads like baseball's, you know, everybody's just trying to hit home runs and strike people out. And it's like the game has evolved. I, I, I think it's in a beautiful place in terms of, I think kids are more talented. I think kids are, have more information at their fingers. But I do think at the end of the day, what separates talented kids from kids who produce is a lot of that intangible stuff that we're talking about, like the iq. How can you manage in a bat? How can you make adjustments, pitch to pitch? And I go back to coaching and I thought my job as a, as a hitting coach wasn't to teach guys how to swing, it was to teach guys how to be a good offensive player. And I think guys can do it differently, like, and everybody has different strengths and they do certain things real well. But I always thought it started with having an idea of how somebody's going to try to get you out, understanding what you do really well. And I think at times, I think it gets overlooked a little bit in the early stages. But I think that's what helps guys when they get to college is there's not how pretty your swing is. It's, you know, can you find a way to grind out in a bat? Can you find a way to get on base? Can you get the ball in play? You know, good hitters are going to get their hits and do all that kind of stuff. But I think that pitch to pitch, the, the recognition of pitches, the understanding of situations, I think that's what unlocks it for guys. And sometimes it takes time. Like, and that's why it's really hard to be good as a freshman because you've never, you've never had to face what you're going to face on a day in and day out basis. [01:10:42] Speaker C: Yep. [01:10:42] Speaker B: You know, whether it's just the pure stuff, the speed of the game, strike zones are better, umpires are usually better. [01:10:52] Speaker A: Sometimes it's a culture shock when you get to college a little bit. Like, you know, like we talked about before, you're, you know, generally speaking, you're coming from a high school program where you're probably the dude or one of the few guys and all of a sudden, like, you're surrounded by dudes. And it can be a little bit of a shock to the system. Like, I remember, I'll never forget my freshman year watching Kenny Anderson take BP in the first like week and a half of practice. Like, Kenny had unreal oppo juice. Like, I remember his freshman year, he jumped the yard through the goal post in right center field, which on the old field was like, you had to get it. And I remember watching it being like, yo, like, what is this? We're the same age, we're freshmen together. Kenny, one of my best friends. Like, where. What is going on? And it, like, it, it, you know, at least for me, it was like, wow. It was eye opening of like, wow. Okay. Like not only does Justin Lepore look like he's chills without a stone, but like everyone else is huge. [01:12:07] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [01:12:08] Speaker A: You know, like at the time, I mean, it was me and Tyler who were catching. Like, I mean, I'm not a small dude. Like, Tyler dwarfed me. Like, Tyler's like 6 4, like 230 when we play, you know what I mean? Like, and like I'm coming from a plate where, you know, I'm not a small dude. I'm like, wow, man. Like, I was kind of one of the biggest guys where I'm from. Like, I even close to being the biggest guy here, you know. So it was, it was a little bit of a shock to the system when you go. And like, I think it's, you know, I think for people who listen and kids that are going to college, like, it's okay to recognize that stuff. Like, you're probably going to be better off in the long run for it because it's like, oh, like, okay, like this is, this is what I'm into. And that's kind of that, that option of like, do I just do nothing or do I work and try to get better and outwork people and that. Like that, that's the difference, you know, especially when you start talking about, you know, guys in the cape. And then, you know, we had Kevin Smith on who, who played for who, who I coached in, in high school, you know, when he made it to the big leagues and you know, he'll even said he's like, you know, I'm not the most talented guy to have who have made it. Like, I think there's a lot of guys that are more talented, talented me to have. But like, you know, I just, I work and it wasn't, it was a hump. You know, he was very humble about. He's like, it's just what I know and for me it worked out. And I think that that's true for a lot of guys. Like, there are a lot of guys out there that are uber talented that, you know, you can probably look at and be like, damn, I don't know how it did, but like, I bet you if you ask, like, I didn't do all the work that I probably should have. And it's true in college, it's true in high school, it's true along all walks of life. But, but you know, I just think that that's like, it is a shock to the system when you get the college, like, damn, everyone is good, you know, like, and I loved it. Like, I've said this to Andy all the time. Like, I love that first like falling or squad when freshmen start throwing and like, they try to spin like that fringe college breaking ball that like you like. But we're going to tighten it up in college to get out and like they spin it to like your, you know, four hole guy and he like loses it and they're like, no one's hit that breaking ball in high school. Like, yeah, man, it ain't a college breaking ball. That's why, you know, but it's, it's that moment of like, it's that coachable moment of like, hey, that's why we got to make this a little bit better. That's why we got to tighten this up. That's why we got to change whatever it might be. But like, it's kind of that eye opening experience for guys of like, yeah, I just can't throw fastballs by guys or I can't throw this, you know, okay, breaking ball and get guys out. Like, I have to. Got to work at some stuff to get these dudes out so that I can find success. [01:14:42] Speaker C: Yeah, the game's hard. It's hard. And yeah, that. It's almost like it's a mental thing for these freshmen at first. And some of them, you're right. Like, everyone's journey to the field is different, right? Some guys just need more time. Some guys need mentally just more time to grow and to. To get experience and get college abs in the fall and, and go through a full preseason. You know, some of them physically aren't ready yet and are getting in the weight room for the first time. But it is a culture shock for some of these freshmen and they realize, like, this game ain't as easy as it was for you maybe your last six years. Like, it is, it is hard at this level to get on the field right away. And, you know, they, they find out about that right away and, and then we find out a lot about them. Like, are they mentally tough enough to, you know, really put their nose in it and get better? Like, do they value it enough to. To really get better or are they accepting it of, you know, maybe this isn't the year for me. Like, like, we need, we need to know right away like that that kid is going to be willing to work and willing to develop and put in the time and. Because this game, it's, it's. That's why it's great. I mean, it's. It's the hardest game there is. And, you know, it takes the ultimate sacrifice as far as the time, you know, to put in and the level of toughness you need to have to get through. [01:16:08] Speaker B: Well said. Last question that we ask everybody. [01:16:14] Speaker C: Got you. [01:16:15] Speaker B: You've been doing this for a while. If you could give a couple pieces of advice to players or families that are. Have aspirations of playing in college or going through the recruiting process right now, what would you, what would you leave the listeners with? [01:16:29] Speaker C: Advice. Advice for parents. I think, as a parent. Right, Truly, truly. You know, find out if your kid really wants to do this, because I think at first, I think parents think it's easy as well. So really dissecting like your kid and you know, it's not dad that's going to go on to play college baseball, it's your kid. So, you know, really dissecting it and really, you know, as you're going through it and I think that you'll find out probably in the middle of your kid's high school career that this is something that they want and it's not what you want. And then I, I think going back on what I said, I, I think, and Keith kind of touched on it too, you have to figure out what you want in this whole college experience, right? Go through your mental checklist, right? You know what's important to you, what places fit you. Like, find out what places fit you. And once you find out, you know, that, that five to eight places or five to seven places, I think your next step is, you know, going to those events that they're offering and playing in front of those coaching staffs. And then I think it's still in your core. I, I liked what we said as well earlier. It's still in your court, right? Like once you're on those campuses for events, you know, whether it's a prospect camp or a team camp, right, like, ask those questions, like, what is it like playing here? What is it like going to school here? What's the day to day? Like, you know, if there's players that are at that event, you know, grabbing them and, and talking to them about what it's like playing there. I think kids think that the ball's in the college coaches court the entire time. I think early on on the front end, it, it comes down to what you want and what's a fit for you first. And then once you find that, I think getting on those campuses and getting front in front of those coaching staffs, that's the, that's the goal, and I think that that's the goal to create the most attractable options for yourself as far as, you know where you're going to play and where you're going to choose to play at the end of the day. But I do think that that's the best advice I could give to parents. [01:18:53] Speaker B: I think that it makes a ton of sense. Like if somebody with some experience and some knowledge of what it takes to play at certain schools tells you, hey, I think Maris might be a good fit for you, and you go and do your research and you go, yeah, that's got everything that I'm looking for. It's the right distance from home, it's the right size school, it's a really good program, really good academic school. Well, now you need to get in front of that coaching staff, whether it's, you know, a tournament and making sure that, like, you know, hey, I'm going to be at this tournament. But to your point, the easiest way to get there is go to camp. [01:19:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:19:35] Speaker B: You know, and that's, I think, a lot of people go through this process thinking, like, well, if I'm good, everybody's going to find me. Well, if you're good and you don't play in front of anybody, it gets really hard. [01:19:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:19:48] Speaker B: You know, like, you could be really good on some tournament that's getting played in Western New York, but if the schools that you're interested in are. Aren't there, there's not a lot that you can go off of. So, like, you got to make that decision. And to your point, I think you start up front about what are you trying to get out of it, what's important to you? It's a really good place to start. And it's where we start a lot of our guys. [01:20:10] Speaker A: I think for what you just said, Andy, like, and Lance, when you start with going to camp first, then that might move the needle for Lance to go to Western New York to see you play. You know what I mean? Like, like, and that's. It's not going to happen all the time, but that could move the needle, right? Like, hey, we really like this kid at camp. He's playing this weekend. I'm going to go up and watch him play and make a decision versus not go to camp, play the tournament that no one's going to be at, and then be like, hey, I went nine for 11. Like, okay. And like, and this is, this is hard, but it's. College coaches were like, okay, who were you hitting off of? And like, if you're there and you watch it, it's like, yeah, man, he was facing, you know, mid to upper 80s guys all day long. Just rolled the pole, you know? So, like, I think that that's, like, that could be a determining factor in some of this stuff for people to think about. Of, like, hey, if we go to camp first, that could trigger. Trigger them coming and watching us at other events versus hoping they see us and then maybe we go to camp. Like, I think you kind of flip it on its head. Like, go to camp and see if they like you enough to go, then watch a play. [01:21:25] Speaker C: Yeah. And going back on what you're saying too, like, we don't recruit an offer guys that we haven't seen multiple times. [01:21:32] Speaker A: Right. [01:21:33] Speaker C: Like, there's. It rarely happens. We're not in covet anymore. We're not recruiting from behind a laptop. We're not just taking anybody's word. And like, it's even from coaches that I'm close with and guys that I really value their opinions. Like, yeah, that opinion from Andy, if he has the guy that's for us. And he says, hey, man, I think this is the right fit. Like, me and Andy, we have gone. Gone back and forth with guys all the time. Like, I'm still gonna go and see that guy that Andy's recognizing and see him more than one. One more. More than one time to see if he's the right fit. And. And if it's camp, then it's a high school game, then it's another travel game. Like, that's multiple times for me to see you. Like, it's. It's never going to just be one thing. Bada bing, bada boom. Here's $50,000, you know, scholarship here. And, you know, we hope you're a Red Fox at the end of the day. Like, it really is not going to go like that. [01:22:29] Speaker A: No, and it's fair. Like, when you're the head coach and you're making decisions like that, like, you have to. Like, that's just how it is. And I think especially, too, when we talk about position guys, you know, Andy played. Sure, I caught. So I'm not. I'm an outlier in this conversation. But Andy played shortstop. Like, you can show up to watch Andy play. Like, he might only get one ball hit to him. So, like, how are you making a legit, an investment decision on one ball that was hit right at him? You know what I mean? Like, yeah, it was hit right at him. Everyone can feel that ball. So, like, you know, I want to see him go backhand. I want to see him have to go forehand. Like, what does he look like on balls that are slow rollers? How does he cover the base on, you know, on steals, where is he moving on cutoffs, you know, all of those type things where it's like, yeah, I want to. Like, I, you know, and there are things like that that are going to happen during the game that include you in, right. Like, yeah, he didn't get a ball hit to him, but he was in the right spot on every single cut. I, you know, he spun and threw a dude out at home. Like, he moves enough. Like, but I would like to see him field one more time before we really make this decision. But I think those are, like, those are all fair things, and I think those are. They're truisms in recruiting that happen that don't necessarily mean they dislike you from a recruiting standpoint. It's just like, this is what. But I just need to see you actually do it in game versus, like, fungos and balls rolled from the first baseman in between innings. [01:24:02] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And this is an investment we're making. Like, you know, there's money on the table and, and like this all goes back to what type of program we're going to have for four years on that investment. Like if we're going after one shortstop and that one shortstop is going to come right in and compete right away, which, with the 34 man roster, that's how we're recruiting. Andy Touched, touched on that earlier like that. Like these are investments we're making and we have to make sure. And we have to check the boxes. I mean, it won't even be me going to see him multiple times. Like it might be Nico that saw him twice. I saw him once, Ray saw him once. Like, like we're gonna see you multiple times and how you operate and it's the same thing. There's gonna be multiple conversations we're gonna have with you to make sure that the, the mental makeup and the personality fits us, fits us as well. Like there's, there's, it's a process and it's never been more important than it is right now. And especially for us, like Andy, you know, it. We're so close to, to getting back to, you know, to where I think this program's always been known for. Like every single decision we're making with the 26 class, the 27 class, probably following up with another 28 classes to create longevity of success for our program. And we're making, we're making sure that These decisions are 1000% checked off and, and, and we're making sure that it's right before, you know, we make those investments. [01:25:30] Speaker B: Makes a ton of sense. And I, I'm glad to hear you kind of unpack that because I think that a lot of times, you know, the veil, it blinds a lot of people in this and they don't understand it from the position of a coach and the way you talked about it, like this is an investment, this is how we try to build a program is, you know, you want to be as sure as you can that you're getting the right type of talent and you're getting the right type of person in the program because that's ultimately what drives the success, is the, the kids that you're able to bring there. So hopefully this was a good learning experience for the listeners and kind of a behind the scenes look into, you know, some of the ways that coaches think about this. And you know, it's not just merit. Like, I think that a lot of coaches think very similarly in terms of, we Want to have enough information here where we feel like we're making an informed decision one way or the other. Hey, I saw him enough and I just don't think it's there. That's an important decision, too. Yeah. Just as much as it is for you to feel really good about a guy coming and playing for you, it's important for you to be able to say no to guys, too. And that gets lost in the sauce as well. But now this has been as expected. Don't want to hold you up on. [01:26:51] Speaker C: A pedestal, but no, this is. This is. This has been great. [01:26:54] Speaker B: I expected this to be a good one. And I know we took up a good chunk of your time this afternoon, but yeah, Lance, we really appreciate it, man. Obviously, you know where our. Our hearts lie with the Red Fox Nation, but really appreciate you coming on. Really appreciate the time and, you know, look forward to catching up here again soon and hopefully we'll catch you at the first Pitch dinner. If not, I'll try to get up there again this spring and watch you guys play. [01:27:20] Speaker C: For sure, man. Thank you guys so much for having me on. This is. This is great. Anytime too. Talk recruiting, talk baseball. All of it. Tomorrow. Thank you guys for having me. [01:27:31] Speaker B: Sounds good. Appreciate it, man. Have a good one. [01:27:33] Speaker C: Thanks, Lance. Thank you. [01:27:34] Speaker B: Thanks, Lance. Thank you for listening this week. If you're watching on YouTube, go ahead and hit that subscribe button and smash that like button for us. Check us out on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, as well as Spotify. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram MD Baseball. If you want to find out what me and Keith do to help families and players navigate the recruiting process, go ahead and check us out on emdbaseball. Com. Take a few minutes to check out our new online academy. I promise you'll get some good information out of that. Thanks again for listening. Check in with you next week.