Episode Transcript
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[00:01:10] Speaker B: welcome to this week's edition of the Dugout Dish podcast. I'm Andy Kirikidis, joined by my Wonderful Co host, Mr. Keith Glasser. How are we doing, sir? Great.
[00:01:18] Speaker C: How are you?
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Got another special guest on tonight. Pretty fired up for this one. We've had his two of his former head coaches and one of his current assistants on the podcast, but I'm going to kick it over to you for the intro.
[00:01:32] Speaker C: Sure.
I'm actually excited about this intro and I'm excited that you're here and there's a very funny story behind you coming to this podcast. And only one person who's listens to this podcast regularly is going to laugh and probably text me when he hears this.
But today's guest is the 17th coach in the history of Princeton baseball. Coach Ryan Forrest comes to Princeton after three seasons at Boston College where he helped the guy help build the Eagles into an NCAA tournament program team.
Before that, he spent six seasons at Air Force where he recruited in coach pitcher Paul Skeins and 13 years of college coaching. Coach Forest has sent 11 pitchers on professional baseball, including six MLB Draft selections. Coach Forest, welcome to the Dugout Dish podcast. Great to have you. We are excited that you're here. Thank you for joining us.
[00:02:19] Speaker D: I can't, you know, thank you guys for having me. I'm super excited to be on and you know, really excited to talk about Princeton baseball and recruiting and whatever else you guys want to talk about. So I'm excited to be on. Thanks guys.
[00:02:32] Speaker C: Absolutely. If you could for the first two, three minutes of this podcast, go ahead and give the listeners a rundown of how you ended up as the head coach of the Tiger Ball Club.
[00:02:43] Speaker D: Well, I'll tell you guys, this baseball has taken me literally coast to coast all over the country.
I grew up in Denver, Colorado. I went to Creighton University in my freshman year, played there for one year and found out real quickly I was in a little over my skis there. Thought I was a big time hotshot right handed pitcher from Colorado and got to Creighton in the top 25 baseball program and realized there is no chance of me pitching here. So I ended up transferring. I transferred to the University of Maine where I pitched for three years. Had a really good experience there.
It was really cold in Orno, Maine, but it was a really good experience where we were able to play an extremely high level Division 1 baseball. Got a chance to play in the Cape a little bit, got a chance to pitch in some really cool places. But that was kind of the part of my playing career where I realized hey, I wasn't good enough to play professional baseball in any, any capacity. The old 84 to 86 mile an hour right hander, those, the, you don't really find those in professional organizations. Certainly not, not even close to now. Right.
But that's kind of where I figured out I wanted to be in baseball in some capacity.
During that time I didn't know if I wanted to get into coaching or if I more so wanted to get into like a front office type role. But upon graduation I ended up getting an internship with the Pittsburgh Pirates and I was doing, I was a video scouting Internet in the big league clubhouse. So basically in a time when data and analytics was kind of starting, not nearly what it is now was, was when I got into, was when I got into the professional game and basically I was breaking down video, I was building scouting reports on upcoming opponents in the, in the big leagues.
Getting a chance just to intermix with those guys a little bit in the clubhouse and get a chance to see how the coaches operated, see how they worked. And I had a great experience doing that. However, that's really where I really wanted to decide that I wanted to get into coaching just because I wanted to be able to make a difference in student athletes lives or I should say athletes lives.
And so ended up going back to the University of Maine where I was a volunteer assistant for two years, did that and then I was lucky enough to get in contact with, you know, honestly one of my mentors, John Sheehan, who is now the new associate head coach at Dallas Baptist. But at the time he was the head coach at Millersville University.
I sent him a random email and he got back to me just being like, hey, did you know my recruiting coordinator position was open? I was like, actually, I had no idea. I literally just sent an email out of the blue and. And so I went there and I got a chance to be the recruiting coordinator and pitching coach for three years.
Did follow up the one great Eric Suplee there at Millersville University, but had a really good experience there from there. After the 2016 season, we finished Division 2 national runners up.
Had a lot of success developing arms. Won a lot of games there as well.
I was afforded the opportunity to get my first full time coaching job. I believe this was in 2017, so I was five or six years in before I even had a full time coaching job.
But I was the recruiting coordinator and pitching coach at Mississippi College. I was there for one year and that one year we went to the Gulf South Tournament for the first time since the program had turned back to Division 2.
We had again, a lot of success there.
And Coach Kaz at the Air Force Academy called me and, you know, said he wanted to bring me, bring me back to Colorado and wanted me to come to the greatest school in the world, the United States Air Force Academy. So spent six years there.
2021, we were knocking on the door of getting an at large and a regional. And 2022 was the first time since 1969 that we went to a regional. And then 2023, we were literally a game away from going to another regional before being knocked out of the Mountain west tournament. But after that year, Todd Internado called me and basically offered me the job at Boston College. Been there for the past three years and went to a regional this past year and, you know, obviously had a lot of success developing arms. And then this job came out, came about and, you know, I always attest my, you know, I attribute, you know, all my experience, all my experiences from the time I was at the University of Maine, Air Force, you know, Millersville, Boston College, you know, I take all my experiences and, you know, obviously wouldn't be here without those experiences at Princeton University. So excited to get going. And I've been on for just, I guess over a month now. So, you know, whatever you guys ask me, I can answer it to the best of my ability. So if there's any Princeton grads that are listening, you can obviously fact check me. So fact check me, send me an email, whatnot. But yeah, that's kind of my coaching, my coaching journey, my playing journey. And yeah, just super grateful. Excited to be a part of such an unbelievable institution in Princeton University.
[00:07:56] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, man. I know. We're, we're excited for you.
I think you're gonna do some pretty awesome things there.
It's funny you're talking about going from Air Force to Princeton. The first time me and you talked was during your drive from Colorado to bc.
[00:08:12] Speaker D: Yep.
[00:08:13] Speaker B: About Gavin.
[00:08:15] Speaker D: Yep.
[00:08:16] Speaker B: Because Eric, I don't even know how the connection got made, but I know you and Eric, we're good friends. At that point, I think Eric had mentioned like, hey, you should call him. He's one of his guys is going to be a freshman for you. And we got on the phone, we were chit chatting about Gavin and obviously you've done, you did a really good job with Gavin. His.
He's developed into a pretty, pretty lethal weapon out of the Eagles bullpen the last couple years.
[00:08:39] Speaker D: So yeah, he's, he's a special talent.
He's a really special talent, but he's also a better kid. Like, he's super humble, he's coachable.
He's obviously blessed with the rocket launcher arm and a really good breaking ball, so that always helps too. But you know, just, he's, he, he's an unbelievable kid. So good job with him there.
[00:09:01] Speaker B: Andy, shout out. Gavin, he was such a, such an awesome kid and obviously he's super talented, so.
Well, we're going to pick apart some of the, you coach for some awesome guys and we'll get there in a minute, but we always ask first question and you know, since you're only a month on the job, you can answer this however you want, but how do you go about identifying guys in the recruiting process and kind of, what does that process look like in terms of identification? And then kind of the, the general evaluation process for you, how does, how does that unravel?
[00:09:34] Speaker D: Sure, yeah, A lot of the times, you know, the, the recruiting process starts either with the high school coach or, or the travel coach.
Yes, we get emails, yes, we get dms, yes, we look on Twitter and come across videos and anything that, that kind of perks our interest. But, but honestly, I think the bulk of our recruiting process starts from the travel coaches and the high school coaches. First and foremost for us starts with just having a good relationship with those guys. You know, having a relationship where they can pick up the phone, they can text us and be like, hey, we have, we have a guy that I think would be a good fit. The first thing for us that we have to look for is the academic Component just because we are the number one academic institution in the country. And you know, I'm going to steal this from Kaz. We are the greatest school in the world here, you know, and we are actually the number one academic institution in the country, you know, so for us, the big one is looking at the grades, the GPA component for our 2027 class. This is the last class in which they are test optional.
However, every class moving forward is going to be test mandatory. So now that we are kind of wrapping up our 2027 class, we're certainly looking at grades. And then we are strongly suggesting our 28, 29 or 28, that we are recruiting to start taking a test and just at least see where they're at. Right.
Just because that'll give us a good gauge on, you know, what they, you know, if they prepared for their first test, you know, what the score was on that test, and somebody that we might continue to pursue. A lot of times in my experiences, we have seen kids do better. 2nd, 3rd, 4th time taking the test. So again, if they roll out a 25 or a 26 on that first SAT or ACT, you know, don't, don't, don't worry. Because a lot of times, again, we've seen kids do significantly better as they move on.
Once that, once, once we get past, you know, obviously looking at the grades, we try to find as much video, whether it's on Twitter, YouTube, you know, PG, PBR, they all do a really good job of putting video out there. And then also too, we, we try to get out you and, and see those kids play as much as possible.
That's going to be the biggest one for us is, you know, just being able to evaluate those kids as much as possible.
And then on top of that, doing our homework, going back to the travel coach, going back to the high school coach, you know, deciphering first and foremost, like we can, we can tell with our eyes if that individual is going to be good enough to play for us. However, doing our homework to find out if it's the right kid that we want in our program. So doing the, doing our digging on, you know, the character, the background.
Coach Tischler is now on with us here at Princeton. He's an absolute relentless recruiter.
He has an unbelievable eye for talent, but also too, he is really good about, you know, digging and doing the background and asking tough questions. You know, I know when, when him and I were together at bc, like, he even went above and beyond, like trying to get with, you know, maybe a Coach from another sport in which they play. Athletic directors, professors, you know, just really trying to figure out who the whole individual is, you know, so, you know, that's kind of our process in terms of, you know, getting, you know, evaluating or getting a kid going out, evaluating him, and then getting to him to where we get him on campus with his family and decide if he's somebody that we want to offer or not.
[00:13:06] Speaker B: Obviously, the character piece is important to you guys, right? And I think that in general, most coaches would, you know, they're going to echo, like, a very similar sentiment. But why is that so important to you? And I think it's obvious to me and Keith, but, like, from a listener perspective, I think this is the part of the recruiting process that gets glossed over the most because we're obsessed with the Twitter post and the. The very tangible pieces of information that we can put out into the universe. But why is that so important to you?
And why does all that research matter?
[00:13:41] Speaker D: Yeah, we first and foremost run a certain style of offense and defense here, but also too, you know, we're going to coach kids hard and. And we need to figure out that if, you know, if we are coaching somebody hard, like, are they going to be able to take it? Right. And then also, too, from that, we're trying to build an unbelievable culture of guys that are high character, high integrity, guys that do things right, guys that play the game the right way. You know, there's so many different intangibles that go into that character piece and that fit piece, because again, not every individual, like, there's. There's a lot of really, really good baseball players out there. There's a lot of really good, high academic baseball players out there. However, there might be kids that might not be able to play for us and our style and with our coaching style. So we got to make sure that we are doing our due diligence to find those best fits that fit what we're trying to do both on the field and certainly off the field.
[00:14:48] Speaker B: What are some of the green flags and what are some of the red flags, character wise, like whether it's on field, staff or, you know, interactions that you have with the player, the parents, like, what are some. What are some things that fire you up and make you go, yeah, I think that that might be a type of guy for us? And what are some of the things that pop up that might turn you in a little bit of a different direction?
[00:15:08] Speaker D: Yeah, I would say definitely a green flag is, you know, first and foremost, seeing how kids are able to deal with failure. Right.
You know, are they the ones that continue to play the game hard, continue to believe in themselves, continue to trust their process, or, you know, are they the ones that are slamming bats, you know, MF and people blaming coaches, stuff like that? Right. And that's stuff in which we are able to evaluate and see during the recruiting process.
So I would say, like, just being able to see the ways in which kids deal with failure, get failure again. Baseball, it's. It's a game of failure, right? You know, and you're going to. You're going to fail more times than you succeed. So, you know, how do you. How do they deal with that success?
Are they the same person when they're dealing with that. That failure, just as they are when they're having success as well?
So that I think another big red flag is, you know, I need to tow this lightly here. But I do want one thing that I do use in the recruiting process a little bit is, you know, understanding my. My surroundings and seeing the way in which parents act, whether it's their kid or, you know, somebody else's kid.
[00:16:27] Speaker B: That.
[00:16:27] Speaker C: That's.
[00:16:28] Speaker D: That's a. That's a big one for us as well. You know, just because the parents are a lot of the recruiting process as well. Right.
The parents are not the ones making the final decision, but those are the ones that are giving guidance on the process. And, you know, we want to make sure that.
That, you know, we're associating. We're bringing, you know, good families into our program as well. So, you know, those are a few of many, you know, green flags, red flags that. That we might look for throughout. From a character standpoint and certainly a culture development standpoint,
[00:17:01] Speaker B: the parent thing gets overlooked.
[00:17:03] Speaker C: I think.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: I think parents would be shocked at how keenly aware coaches are at games.
You know, I. Keith used to. I actually, I don't think you were allowed to do it under Rossi, but I know you did it a little bit at rpi, where you try to kind of go in incognito to go watch a kid, and you pick up on that stuff, you know, when you're in between innings and you're kind of scanning and you can see and good, bad or ugly, like it is information, you know, it might not be held against you, you know, throughout the whole process, but to your point, you're bringing families in. And I got to imagine that at Princeton, you have way less wiggle room for failure with a recruit than you may have at a Boston College or a Mississippi College, where there's probably potentially room for a little bit more attrition. And you just don't have the ability to bring in those type of numbers.
[00:18:03] Speaker D: For sure. Yeah, our roster sizes are, are, are significantly smaller than even the 34 man roster that that Division 1 baseball has right now. You know, so for us, we got to make sure that we are doing our due diligence that, yes, we want to find the best possible baseball player, but also too, yes, we need to find the best fit that we could find here just because again, you know, our roster sizes are so small, our recruiting classes are really small. You know, we got to make sure that we're bringing in the right people for our program.
[00:18:35] Speaker B: Yeah, missing on talents, one thing, and you can do that occasionally, but missing on a person can really be detrimental to, to the program for sure. And that was something that became blatantly obvious to me when I got to William and Mary with Murph is like how important it was to make sure that you got the right kid. Because if they come in here and they're not quite good enough, we need to know that they're still gonna be pulling in the right direction. And I mean, that's just the reality of college sports for sure. Sometimes, you know, not everybody gets to play, but the kids who don't play, they need to be the right kids because they can, they can taint the water pretty quickly if, if they are happy with where they're at, for sure.
[00:19:19] Speaker D: Well, and this is one thing that I've taken from John Sheehan is, you know, our job as coaches is, you know, first and foremost to make great men great husbands, great fathers. But also too, it's to get, you know, 34 guys holding hands and pulling in the right direction. And if one of those guys stray off, a group of those guys going out to get him and bringing him back in, you know, and just, you know, get again, just continuing moving forward with, with the task at hand and the goal at hand, and that's to receive an unbelievable degree from an unbelievable academic institution. And for us now to win the Ivy League.
[00:19:59] Speaker B: Absolutely.
The.
I'm going to ask you this one because you've coached for some pretty awesome guys, right? And some really accomplished coaches. Know whether it was ti. Did you play for Costi up at. Up in Maine?
[00:20:13] Speaker D: I didn't. I played for trim.
[00:20:14] Speaker B: Okay, well, well accomplished college baseball coach as well. Recently, recently just retired as did. As did Kaz. We had Kaz on the podcast. I was ready to run through the freaking wall through the Air Force Academy after that one. But you're, you're gonna be a new head coach.
And what are some of the things that you're really excited about? What are some of the things that you're nervous about?
And what's some of the good advice you've gotten from those guys? Because I'm sure you've talked to them plenty.
[00:20:44] Speaker D: For sure. Yeah. You know, I think I'm, I'm most excited about is, is building our culture with, you know, between, with what I learned at Millersville, certainly the Air Force academy and then B.C. like, you know, just building my own, I guess, coaching priorities, coaching philosophies that really don't have much to do with baseball, maybe a little bit.
But the first one is just caring about the kids.
You know, once those kids know that you are gonna, you genuinely care about them and you have the best interest for them, they will do whatever for you. Right?
I want to have the relationship with, with our kids where, you know, something's going on at home, you know, break up with their girlfriend, school sucks, you know, you know, something, something's going on up in the dorms where, hey, they can just come and have a normal conversation with me. And they know that at the end of the day, I'm just a dad myself. You know, I got a seven year old and a four year old and the one thing that I have told our guys is I hope our guys have my kids have the opportunity that our guys have. Right?
And if they do have that opportunity, the only thing my wife and I really value for them is that they're just going to be genuinely cared about as people.
[00:22:10] Speaker B: Right?
[00:22:11] Speaker D: We know the development is going to happen on the field. I don't really want my kids to play baseball. I want them to play hockey because I think hockey is so much cooler than baseball, you know, so, you know, we'll use that. But, but yeah, I know that their development is going to happen on, on, on the field, certainly on the ice. But like at the end of the day, the thing we, we really value is just, we just want somebody that's just going to genuinely care about them more than what they're doing for their athletic ability.
The second is, you know, we're just going to care about their student athlete experience. Right? There's this thing called the transfer portal. I'm sure everybody's heard of it, right.
The nice thing for me now is I somehow have lost my transfer portal login. I don't need it anymore.
However, in my previous world, dealing with the Transfer portal a little bit.
Not necessarily losing kids in the portal, but having to piece together, you know, fill some holes within our roster.
Talking to kids that are in there.
I would say 99% of the kids that are in the transfer portal are in there because they're having a terrible experience where they're at, you know, and, and for me, my goal here at Princeton is I want to, I want our kids to get drafted after three years and then we figure out how for them a way to finish school. However, maybe it's not. Maybe they get drafted after four years, maybe they don't get drafted at all.
Whenever they walk across the stage and get that degree from again, the number one academic institution in the United States. And I will say the number one academic institution in the world. Right. I want to make sure that those guys look back and be like, I have zero regrets of ever choosing Princeton, both from an academic standpoint and certainly an athletic standpoint as well.
And then the last one is we're just going to try to make it better. You know, I don't know at all about pitching, I don't know at all about management, you know, team building culture, but I will do my due diligence to go out and find the latest, the greatest, the best to bring back that's going to aid in the holistic development of the individual while they're here at Princeton, you know, so, you know, that's. I know I got a little long winded there, but like, honestly, like, that's the thing I'm most excited about. Like, it's not necessarily like developing baseball players, it's just developing great men, great husbands and great fathers.
I would say the thing I am most nervous about is just the unknowns of being a head coach. This is my first head coaching job.
I've been an assistant for, I don't know, 13 years. Whatever you guys said, I don't even know off the top of my head.
I think I have a pretty good pulse on what to expect on a daily basis, both from, you know, an individual standpoint, certainly a player development standpoint.
I guess I'm most nervous about just the unknowns of, you know, having the head coach hat on now, obviously having to juggle a lot of different things, you know, having a lot more people that need my attention.
So, you know, I, I would say that that might be the biggest thing that I'm a little nervous, a little hesitant about, but honestly, something I'm willing to take on, you know, with a full head of steam.
[00:25:22] Speaker B: He's concernedly speak to that. I can't. He's. He's done the head coach thing before, and I know he has some thoughts on this.
[00:25:30] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, it's.
It's scary, your first go at it, because you don't know.
I think one of the biggest things that.
The biggest I had to make was being comfortable, legitimately being comfortable with the fact that everything stops with you.
Even though, yes, you're making decisions at. As an. As a pitching coach or a hitting coach, whatever it is, but, like, you take over the program, like, everything is you, and that can be daunting and scary.
And it's. I think that the. The baseball stuff always ends up taking care of itself. It sounds cliche and weird, but I think, like, you've. At least for me, I'm not going to speak for you. Like, you've. You've messed up enough as an assistant that you're like, I'm probably going to mess up a couple things as a head coach because I've never done this before. And you can learn from it and move on. It's a lot easier. Like, I remember telling my assistant who he pitched at Wake, and then this was his first coaching job. He got hired in January, and we started in February, like the end of January, beginning of February. And I was like, listen, man, I. I'm going to really mess some things up this year. Looked at me like I was. I had 20 heads. I'm like, dude, I've never been a head coach. Like, I. I mean, I have an idea of what I think I'm going to do, but, like, I don't know.
We're just. We're kind of winging this one. Let's see what happens.
I've had a good year. I mean, but like. And you get tested earlier than I think you think you do, you know, like, I had to suspend an entire house in Florida for game one because I caught them doing something they shouldn't be doing.
You know, and you stick to your guns of what you want to do and how you. How you want to run your program. And, you know, in two, three years, all of a sudden, things start changing and you're. You're in a really good spot. My struggle, in all seriousness, like, my struggle was the. The off the field, not. I don't want to say the off the field stuff, like the administrative side of things, like the budgets and the, you know, and you probably have more people to do this than I had at rpi, but, like, scheduling games and buses and hotels and me, like, all of that stuff, I was like, yeah, what are we doing here?
[00:27:44] Speaker B: All the stuff that people don't even realize is like, yeah, like, oh, by
[00:27:49] Speaker C: the way, like, you have to call and get 47 hotel rooms in Potsdam, New York, and here's your budget of $7.
[00:27:58] Speaker D: Yeah, good luck.
[00:28:00] Speaker C: There's three hotels and there's 47 teams up there this weekend.
All right, can we just stay at a campground? Like, what. What are we doing here?
But no, I. I think that it's.
[00:28:10] Speaker B: I. I can.
[00:28:11] Speaker C: I can certainly put myself in your shoes where, you know, six, seven years ago when I took over, I was like, wow, what am I doing?
Do I have the. Like, do I actually have this in me?
And I think very quickly you figure out that, yeah, you do. You know, it's. You get comfortable with being able to make those super important decisions and your live or die with what it is that you. The decision you made and you've done it before, it's just at a slightly different level where, you know, But I. I think to your point, when you're talking about, you know, the first point you made about being excited about teaching young men and raising, you know, or not raising. You are raising two kids, but your players, that you want them to leave there being better men, husbands, fathers, everything when they leave. I think our generation of coaches, and I. I think I've probably said this on here. I think our generations of coach. Our generation, excuse me, has done a really good job of, for lack of a better term, humanizing ourselves as coaches, right? Where, like, the guys I played for, I mean, I played for heels, right? Like, I love him to death. He's a huge. He's a very good mentor of mine. Like, I look up to him. Like, I didn't know anything about heels until I graduated, right? Like, we became a lot closer and more of peers after I graduated and started coaching. Whereas a coach, not saying you're a peer with your. Your head coach in college, but, like, you know, I was rip. I, like, my kids knew who my wife was. They knew my son, they knew, like, they knew a lot more about me. And I think when you start, when you hold yourself to the standard that you are asking your players to, like, you get that. You get that all in. Buy in a lot faster than what it was years ago, where it's just, like I said to do this, so just do it right. Like, and I think that that was something that I noticed, at least in my program, in the way that I did things.
And everyone does it differently, but like, you know, if. You know, I. If I screwed up, like, I would just flat out be like, yo, that was on me. I.
[00:30:08] Speaker B: That.
[00:30:09] Speaker C: Sorry. Like, I shouldn't have sent him to third with two outs. I didn't realize that they were going to make the two best throws in the history of baseball to get us out. Like, that one's on me. Um, but I think when you're able to do that and you're able to, like, legitimately talk to your kids where they trust you and they know that you care about them, that you. That you're humble enough to be like, hey, that one's on me. Like, that now. Like, it gives them permission to go and play a little bit harder and make mistakes, because then it's like, well, okay, if. If he's going to live with me being aggressive, okay? Like, he does. It messes up, you know, but then you can coach that part into them. And I think that, like, we started really making a jump as a program when those things started happening. I'm not saying I have all the answers. I do. Not by any stretch of the imagination. But I just think for. For the way that I did things and the way that we did it, the way that I saw the response out of my players, I think that it's. It's a super exciting thing to be a part of. And, you know, when you. You've never done it before, I think that it's. It can be super scary. I. I had. I got named head coach. I had pneumonia. I got. I was in the hospital. I got engaged, like, two days later.
It was.
[00:31:23] Speaker B: I was.
[00:31:25] Speaker C: And then that was in. That was December, and then we started in January.
So, like, I didn't know what I was doing. Like, yeah, I'd been there for five years.
[00:31:34] Speaker D: You knocked it all out. Getting head coach with pneumonia and getting engaged, like, what a trifecta there.
[00:31:41] Speaker C: Yeah, we're just going to go ahead and we're going full send on this one.
First time I was, like, actually paid as a real college baseball coach, so I was like, screw it. Let's just get married, too. We might as well just, like. Let's check all the things off the box here.
No, that's.
I. I think that you're. In my very limited professional opinion, I think that you. You have three really good pillars of things that you believe in. And I think that, like, I think it's interesting to talk about, and we can talk about this probably for hours and take up a lot of time on this podcast, but you're the Guys you coached with or coached for, for lack of a better term, most of them are like, kaz is a legend in this game. When you played for Tremper. You know, John Sheehan is an unbelievable baseball coach that college baseball is about to find out how good of a baseball coach he actually is. Because I think we've been beating that drum for a very long time. And you work for him, you know, and TI is an unbelievable coach.
Those guys win and through osmosis. And for me, you know, I, I coach for Gary Rundles who was at West Alabama. He had been there for 33 years, I think when he won a ton at West Al. And what's the other one in Tennessee that I'm forgetting? That's Division 2. Not Carson Newman. He was a Carson Newman. And West Owl Tony Rossi was there for. I was there for years like 42 and 43 and ended up there for 55.
And then Carl, who had over a thousand wins and was at RPI for 35 years. Like, I was able to coach for a bunch of guys that I affectionately called dinosaurs. Like, you learn through osmosis with those guys, right? Like they've for some of those guys, forgotten more than we know.
And it's awesome to be around and I'm excited to see where you're able to go because you have that a foundation of really, really good coaches that you've learned under that you're going to be able to pull a lot of things from guys that are uber successful to build your own program the way you want to really be successful there.
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[00:34:46] Speaker D: and like I look back at like, you know, obviously, Trent, John, Taz, Todd, you know those guys all have very different personalities and they have very different ways of going about their business on a daily basis. However, they all win. And I think the one common factor that it always comes back to is it's about the student athlete and it's about caring for them and it's about their overall development while. While they're there, while they're under your watch, you know. So that's the one thing I think I'm most excited about just. Just to get here and, and really just get going with the guys.
[00:35:26] Speaker C: Yeah. Isn't it interesting when you work for a bunch of people, how, like, how different it can be, but, like, how a lot of the things are. Like, I remember my first, like, week at RPI, Carl would stroll in the office at like 10 o'.
[00:35:39] Speaker D: Clock.
[00:35:40] Speaker C: Coach Rossi's in the office at 4, 4am and that is not an exaggeration. Like, you roll in at 6:30 and he's like, what is this Bankers hours? Like, what have you been doing? And it's like, it is. It's 6am Most of the world isn't even awake right now, right?
And Carl walks up the stairs. I was already in the off. I'd probably been in the office since like 7. And he was like, hey, this is in Siena.
And he was super tight with Coach Rossi. He was like, you don't need to be here for 47 hours a day. Like, just so you're aware, like, come in, answer your emails, make some calls tonight, go do whatever you want to do. We'll be fine. And I was like this, it was, it was a hard adjustment for me because it wasn't what I was used to.
But, like, you know, on the same end, guy won a thousand games, been the World Series. Like, he's really good, you know, so it was like, okay, like, how do I balance. Strike this balance.
But it was, it's a lot of fun. Like, you get to. You really start to learn, like, how there's a lot of different ways to go about things and still win and you just kind of pull what all the things you like out of it and then either try to make it better or just steal it. Right? Like this game is stealing. Like I, I stole things from Coach Peretti. I stole things from still things for a lot of people, it just is what it is. Oh, I like that. I'm gonna do that. But you know, it'll be fun.
[00:37:03] Speaker D: Genuinely excited about the opportunity for sure.
[00:37:07] Speaker B: That personal connection piece is I, I think. I don't think it gets talked about about enough. Right. Like, I'm gonna ask you some. Like, I'm gonna ask you development questions here in a second, but, like, figuring out the kid. Right. I wish that I learned this a little bit earlier in my coaching career because I felt like it made a huge difference once it really clicked. That swing adjustments and infield drills and, like, everybody's got different ones, but the personal connection you can have with the kid, getting to know who they are, getting to know what make them, makes them tick, building that level of trust, that is the fuel that the development fire needs in order for a kid to buy in.
Like, hey, Coach Forest is asking me to make this adjustment on my breaking ball. Well, if you establish enough of a rapport with that kid, where he's going, okay, tell me what I need to do. And like, that trust and learning how to communicate the same message slightly differently with a kid, depending on who it is. I'm sure you had to talk to Gavin slightly different than you had to talk to other guys on the staff, because you're Gavin's, like, the most relaxed kid in the. I've ever been around it, like, 17. I've never met anybody who I thought was as cool as him. But I'm sure you have some other guys that need a slightly different tone, a slightly different message. It needs different verbiage. And that. That was the thing that I thought helped me become a much better coach was like, the realization of, oh, these are all different kids. It's not cookie cutter. Your principles can stay the same. They don't ever need to change. But each one of these kids is different. They're going to learn different. They're going to respond differently. And like, it sounds like that is at the core of what you're trying to do.
[00:38:49] Speaker D: Yeah, 100%, you know, it's understanding just the individual. And like you said, like, understanding, you know, what makes them tick, understanding how to properly communicate and get a message across them, whether it's, you know, a cue or whether it's, hey, you know, get to class, you know, you know, just understanding just the individual as a whole is huge.
[00:39:16] Speaker B: So technology has taken off. You got introduced to it early with the Pirates.
How has the rise in technology and data, how has that changed how you recruit?
And then the second part that I'm more interested in is how has that changed how you've helped develop guys? Because you've had a ton of success doing that.
How do you leverage that to squeeze as much out of a kid as you can?
[00:39:46] Speaker D: Yeah, first of all, I'll talk about the recruiting side first.
I really enjoy tech. I really enjoy data.
However, I still don't think there's any better way to evaluate a kid than just going out and seeing him play and seeing him compete without the tech and with all. Without the. Without the data.
I think using tech and using data from a recruiting standpoint to I guess reaffirm what you're seeing is. Is awesome. I think us as coaches, we need to continue to develop, continue to get better with it just because of the amount of access that recruits now have to all the tech and all the data. I mean, even three or four years ago, you know, not every facility had a trackman or a rap. So now I feel like everywhere you go, you're like, oh, hey, I could get, I could get trackman data on a whim, right?
I still think going out and being able to, you know, watch kids play, see how they compete, see what works for them on the mound, and then back checking the data is the way in which I use it. We have. When I was at bc, we had a couple.
We had a couple development coaches that would obviously go out and recruit a little bit for us, but would more so help out with camp. And I, I remember them just like literally sitting behind the computer at our camp and they're like, yeah, we just have to recruit this kid because, because his data says this.
I'm like, yeah, but like, watch the kid. Like, there's more than just the data. You know, watch, you know, do you like the body? Do you like the delivery? Do you like, can you project that this is going to get better rather than just be like, yeah, we just need to take this kit because this is what the data says, right? And so, like, I strongly suggested for those individuals, I'm like, guys, like, I just want you to go sit up in the stands or go down the first baseline and watch these guys play without the tech and then come back to the. Go. Come back to the computer and you can go back through all the data. And again, that just gives you, I think, a better picture of who the player is in terms of the development side with our current guys and with our pitchers that we've had over the past couple years.
Yeah, I really like tech. I really like data.
I have a good foundation. I don't know it all.
I can put together individual player programs based upon that tech and based upon the data in which we're receiving.
The one thing that I just don't want guys to lose sight of is, is at the end of the day, it's competition, and it's you versus the guy 60ft, 6 inches away.
And for some reason, I. I always use this example is if it's somebody that, you know, their IVB is at 20 to 22 inches, and for that day, they're at 13 inches. And that's the excuse why they're getting hit. Like, you know, that's where I try to draw the line. Right. I just don't want the tech and I don't want the data to be basically a crutch for somebody when they're not having success. Right. I want to use the tech, I want to use the data to continue to aid in player development based upon the results in which we're getting.
But also, too, I just don't want our guys to lose sight of the task at hand. And that's the competition aspect.
[00:43:17] Speaker B: I've gone down multiple different rabbit holes with. With Eric on this, and at some point, I'll probably try to grab your ear on it too, because I love just hearing, like, how different people use it.
But I always had that question because I'm a data guy, too, and I think the data is incredible. But we also come from an era, like, we didn't have that. So, like, the compete factor and, like, are you getting people out or are you putting good swings on the ball? Like, that was our measure of are you good or not?
I always. And I've talked to Eric about this a ton, but how you thread that needle of making sure that when it's time to pitch, all that other stuff is gone and that you can just go out and really compete and feel good about your stuff.
Understanding that most of these kids come in, like, really educated on the information, and they have an idea of what it means and how some of the pieces of that puzzle get together. You know, it's not just velocity or inverted break, but, like, your release point, your release height, and all the different pieces of the puzzle. And it's. It's. I think it's really cool because I think if you leverage it the right way, it gives them some.
It gives them some power in the process because you can speak kind of the same language, but it always. Not having. Not being in those shoes anymore, the technology does scare me a little bit because of how important the compete factor is. Like, I think of it from a hitting coach's perspective.
And I didn't like to think of myself as, like, a swing coach.
My job was to take college hitters and help them become better offensive players. Right? Pitch decisions and understanding pitch mix and situation. And it always scared me when guys had too much information and it gets cloudy versus being able to paint like a clear picture of. Here's your plan, here's what we're trying to execute. The other part from the pitching perspective. And I want to get your opinion on this because Eric talks about this. Understanding a player from a data perspective in using that information to put them in advantageous positions from a pitch call perspective and using their strengths to try to really elevate them. That's something that Eric, I think does really well. And is that something you leverage it for too? Like knowing which guys can do certain things and kind of not asking them to do things that they're not capable of?
[00:45:48] Speaker D: 100%. Yeah. I mean, you know, the strengths of their strengths. Right. And, and the way in which we're going to leverage more so pitch calling is, you know, obviously we're not going to call their third or fourth pitch when it's a high leverage situation. Right. We want to go after guys with, with their strengths. And I think understanding, you know, once we get a sufficient amount of data, once we get, you know, video, you know, I even think like, just looking at like an old school metric of, you know, what's their swing and miss percentage, what's their end zone rate, you know, insert pitch, you know, I think that gives you a good idea of, you know, what their strengths are and being able to leverage their strengths in those situations.
[00:46:34] Speaker B: Do you think sometimes the data can get them to buy into their strengths even more and like, really trust, like, hey, I can just let it rip at the top of the zone here because that's what I do.
[00:46:43] Speaker D: Well, for sure, for sure. Yeah. You know, I think where it gets cloudy is where, you know, guys try to change things and they try to be somebody that they're not, right? Where it's not, it's like, hey, you know, your, you know, your slider's horizontal movement is, is really good. Right. You know, hey, you're, you're fast. Your, your, your sinker has, you know, you're sink. You're in your slider play off each other really well. And you know, why do you think you need to add a four scene? You know, that's just a few of many examples.
But, but yeah, you know, obviously, you know, providing them the evidence of this is what makes you good and this is why it makes you good, you know, and this is why you need to continue to do this. And let's be really good at doing this before we add something else.
[00:47:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm really curious to see just like, the continued usage of data, because I think there's some evidence to suggest that the pendulum swinging a little bit back towards the middle again, where, like, the gameplay stuff, the IQ stuff that is a little less quantifiable, it seems to be showing up a little bit more in the big leagues than it had previously. Like, with the Brewers, I think, is like a really good example with, like, super high bat to ball.
They're, you know, the best team in baseball right now, and they don't. I think they have the least amount of home runs, which is a little bit counterintuitive to how the game has been played recently. And I, you know, I think it'll come back to the middle, but I'm. I'm just fascinated about the amount of data, the. The access that people have to it and how different coaches use the data and don't use the data. Like, when do you turn it on? When do you turn it off? And, you know, just kind of see how that all progresses for guys.
[00:48:29] Speaker D: So, yeah, well. And also, too, I think it goes back to the recruiting process and just being like, okay, like, you know, what do you. Like, what do you like to see? You know, what. What do you think makes you a good player? Right? We actually had a kid on campus this past week, and he asked me the same question about, like, hey, how are you utilizing data to, you know, aid in player development? And I gave him the basically the exact same answer. Like, hey, like, we use it and we get a sufficient amount of data and we put individual. Individual player, Individual player plans together for you guys based upon the data. But, like, at the end of the day, too, like, I just want you guys to compete. And he's like. He's like, that's what I love to hear. He's like, you know, I don't want to use data as an excuse where it's like, hey, I gave up that double because I missed on my slider the pitch before.
I was just like, you're speaking music to my ears here. Understanding just like, yes, the data is there. We understand your strengths with that data, but also too, don't lose fact of the competition side.
[00:49:41] Speaker B: Physicality has become wildly important in college baseball these days.
I'm assuming that's a big part of what you guys do, and I would love for you to just highlight the importance of that because I think that that gets lost in the sauce for a lot of high school guys. We get really obsessed with the skill acquisition. But if you've coached at some high levels of Division 1 baseball. Like one thing when I came down to watch you guys at Richmond was, oh, wow, Gavin is like a man now. Like he's built like a linebacker and just the physicality there. And I'd love for you to kind of expand on how you intertwine it into your program and just kind of highlight how important it is for kids.
[00:50:26] Speaker D: Yeah, you know, I think obviously the, the biggest part of player development is what goes on in the field.
I, I think a very, very close second and maybe it's even like A1 A1B is the physicality in the weight room. And I think that honestly is the thing that certainly at the high school level is, is neglected the most.
I think, you know, maybe not so much in the Ivy League, however, but in my previous world being in the ACC, you know, we have 18 year olds coming in that are competing against 23, 24 year old men. And for us, you know, the physicality piece was honestly a huge part of our recruiting process.
I know we were joking a little bit before we got on the podcast about the way in which Eric and I honestly evaluate pitchers. And it goes back to our time at Millersville. Like, hey, you're 6, 3 and above. Like you can pitch at Millersville, if not like you can't, you know, and it's a little bit more than that, obviously, but, but like it's still part of it, right? You know, we want kids that are, you know, big projectable kids that are strong and, and I firmly believe the way in which you're able to fill that gap, especially quicken that gap once you get to this level is by strength and conditioning and lifting and lifting a lot. And there's a lot of kids out there that are like, oh, well, I don't want to get too big. Like, no, like, dude, lift. Like, you know, first and foremost, if I, if I were, if my kids were in this situation, the thing that I would recommend most for them is getting a baseball specific strength and conditioning trainer that is going to continue to get them bigger and stronger, but also to maintain their mobility and flexibility and, and do things that are, you know, that have a correlating factor to what we are doing on the field. It's not necessarily like training like a football player, but like, you know, just being able to find that balance because again, the physicality piece is, is really big for us in our, in our recruiting process.
[00:52:39] Speaker B: Kind of along the, this, the same lines there. What, what are some of the biggest adjustments that you See, kids have to make when they get on campus as freshmen. What's the steepest learning curve for guys?
[00:52:52] Speaker D: I think the steepest learning curve is them understanding how fast the game is.
Right. I think, you know, even the kids that play high level high school baseball, high level travel baseball, they don't necessarily understand that the speed of the game is so much faster at our level, you know. So I think for them it's putting them in situations, putting them in pressure packed situations. You know, whether it be in the fall, whether it be, you know, in the preseason, that's going to simulate as best as you can the speed of the game at this level. You will never be able to totally simulate it without being in an actual game. But just, you know, making them know like, hey, that you know, guys are bigger, faster, stronger, you know, the margin for error at this level is so much, is so thin, you know, again, a lot can happen. If you make a mistake, how are you going to deal with that mistake? You know, how are you going to deal with that failure? How are you going to learn from it and move on? Just so again that window doesn't continue to stay open, you know. So I just think, you know, giving them awareness and just trying to put them in as many situations in which they might get sped up as they can.
[00:54:08] Speaker B: Yeah, the, the practice stuff was like looking back on it now, I think the just learning how to practice at that level. Like when you walk in in the fall, that 18 year old kid has never been on, he's never been in a practice situation where everything's down to the minute and there's a certain pace, there's a certain level of focus, there's a certain level of intention that is just different. You know, most high school kids and this isn't a knock on high school, it's just, it's just the world of, you know, a lot of limited resources and I don't think kids practice a lot during the summer and you know, used to like, hey, we'll go take BP on the field and like the pitchers go down and like play catch versus we've got two hours on the field and we've got it mapped down to the minute of how this is going to work and this is what we're doing today in the competition level. The intensity of it, like it can, it can trip kids up early and the quicker they get acclimated, the quicker they tend to take off. But like those first couple weeks of like the true team practice was always interesting to take a step back and like, kind of watch the freshmen try to figure it out.
And you'd see some guys just like, all right, like, we're good. I'm, I'm good with this. And then some other guys, you could tell head was spinning a little bit, like, what am I, am I supposed to be here? Am I supposed to be there? Like, where, where do I go for this? And it was always interesting to, to watch that kind of unravel, but I think that's such a huge adjustment for kids.
[00:55:47] Speaker D: Well, and I think even more so, talking specifically from a pitching standpoint is going from the high school level to this level is the amount of throwing in which we do.
Right. You know, kids think that, like, hey, they, they throw in their outing, maybe they toss the next day, maybe they toss again the day after that. Maybe they have their midweek bullpen and then they're ready for the, the end of the week. They're. They're outing at the end of the week where, like, for us, like, you know, we play catch every day, right. And the intent of the catch play is different on a daily basis, but also, like, they have to understand, like, that our high intent throwing days and our high intent lift days, yes, those are very important.
However, we can't do that every day.
And that the recovery days are just as important as those higher intent days, because again, those recovery days are going to make, are going to propel those higher intent days. You know, and that's one thing that we're, you know, honestly, kids just want to go balls to the wall all the time, especially younger kids, because they're trying to come in, they're trying to show off, they're trying to make a name for themselves.
And, and that's where a lot of times, you know, you see some regression or potentially guys get hurt. But I think, like, the biggest one from a pitching standpoint is, you know, getting those guys that, you know, first and foremost, they understand how much we actually throw on a daily basis. But also, too, they understand the different intent levels of throwing that those days and treating those catch plays days as professional as possible.
[00:57:22] Speaker C: The practice stuff is wild.
I think it's something that we could probably do an entire podcast on or bring coaches on to talk about, because I think it's one of the biggest jumps that the high school kid has no real clear basis of what it's going to be like when you're there.
And it's like, I always, I always think when we talk about this, I always think about, like, the first day you do first and thirds, just even in the fall, just to like, review them with your older guys. And you have the outfielders that are just trying to make every freshman in the infield have their head in a pretzel or a freshman arm who's like, has never had a long hold, doesn't really know how to go runners, and someone just takes off and it's like they purely panic, they turn the wrong way, they don't know where to go, and everyone has to stop. It's like, hey, you don't turn arm side. That ball needs to be delivered to the second baseman before he crosses him. Like, all those little things that matter. And like, next thing you know, like, their head is in a blender and it's like, what? Like, what are we doing here? Like, I've never done this. I've never. And like, 99% of the things that you're going to practice in that situation never happen.
But it is like, if it does, you have to know what you're supposed to do because someone might leave early on you. In a first and third situation, what do you do? Because as coaches, we need to know, like, can, can Andy go out there and actually handle this situation?
Because if he can't, we can't put him out there. If he can't field a bunt during bunt Ds, I don't know if we can leverage him in the back half of games. Because in a one run game, like, they might bond on him, he might throw it down the right field line. Like, all of those things legitimately matter, along with all the stuff we've talked about with the data and being able to pitch and do those things. But, like, those things matter too. And are you a 18 to the plate? Can you pitch at a 1 2? What does that look like? Or is it just going to be a merry go round when guys get on the field? And not for nothing, like, you're coming from a program that really, really values stealing bases and speed. Like, I'm sure there's a number in that dugout where, like, hey, if this guy's over this number, see you all. You guys are greenlit.
[00:59:38] Speaker B: Don't care.
Yeah.
[00:59:40] Speaker C: And that, like, and I've known that for a very long time, right? Like, I've known ti for a long time. I know what that looks like.
But like, I, I think that those are things that a lot of younger kids don't necessarily. I don't think it's taught, for one. I don't think that kids really understand it.
And like just that, like you're that first, those first couple days when you start installing some of that stuff, it, you can, you can really put some kids in a. Not negatively, right? Like, you're not trying to do it negatively, but like, hey, there's a lot more to this than just towing the rubber and trying to get guys out. You got to be able to hold runners, you got to be able to hold, you know, very looks, be able to pick. You got to be, you have to field your position, you know, position guys. You have to run the basis, like at some point in time you're going to be on base. You have to have a general understanding of how to go first to third or score from first on a double with two outs or goes home second to home. Like, you have to have that basic understanding and so have no idea.
[01:00:42] Speaker D: Yeah, I always, I always say like my, one of my favorite days of the year is when we have our first inner squad of the fall and we have a freshman on the mound. And I know where this is going.
[01:00:53] Speaker C: This,
[01:00:55] Speaker D: he's a 1 second hold every time he's a 14 to the plate and once he lifts his leg, you know, we're standing on second base, he does it again, we're standing on third base. Like, and for our guys, like again. Yeah, I could, I could say this. You know, we're going to try to run the, a very similar style of offense here at Princeton that we ran at B.C.
and with that being said, like, if our guys can hold our own runners, they're going to be able to hold anybody in the country. So they're going to be a 12 to the plate. And if not, there's going to be a big issue.
[01:01:31] Speaker C: Yeah, but, and it's, I think it's something that most people don't, we don't talk about enough. And it's something that legitimately factors into whether or not you make a decision on recruiting a kid or not. Like, do I think he's athletic enough, be able to get him down to a one two, one three? Like, can he do it or is he always going to be a high leg lift one five, one six of the plate? Like, hey man, like I don't, you know, and those are things that they legitimately do matter. And you know, I, I never thought of any of that when I was in high school.
[01:02:05] Speaker D: Right.
[01:02:05] Speaker C: Like, and I was a catcher. Like, I didn't, I had no idea. Like, I tell this on the top pockets all the time. Andy yelled at me the first day of practice. Doing double cuts because I didn't know where the I was. This is a true story, right? I was calling two on double cuts. Like, there's no two call. And he's like, figure it out. I'm like, yo, I've never done this. I don't know what I'm doing back here. No. No clue. I'm calling two. I was like, what?
Everyone's like, why are we throwing it to the second? It's an assumed double. I'm like, well, didn't know. I, I have no concept of where I'm supposed to, What I'm supposed to do.
[01:02:43] Speaker D: And I figured it out.
Yeah, you probably never did it again after that.
[01:02:46] Speaker C: No, like, someone was just like, if there's a run around first, it's a four call. If it's a runner, if no one's on first, it's a three call. I was like, probably. Well, that makes all the sense in the world.
[01:02:57] Speaker B: Probably could have handled that a little bit better in hindsight. But I wasn't necessarily shy about letting Keith know, like, hey, man, that's not what happens here.
[01:03:05] Speaker C: Yeah, I've never done it before. We just, they were like, double cuts. And I was like, double cuts? How far do guys hit balls here? Like, we need a double cut. Like, this is absurd.
[01:03:15] Speaker B: I, I, I won't name the team, but last year, watching you guys play at BC and watching guy get on first base in the first leg lift and thinking to myself, this can be a long day for them.
This is gonna be. And I, I think you guys might have stolen, like, 12 bags. And you know exactly what I'm talking.
[01:03:36] Speaker D: I know exactly. Yeah, I know exactly what I'm talking about.
[01:03:39] Speaker B: But those are the details, right? And, like, you're talking about all the nuance that goes into this. And, like, Keith talked about going first to third and scoring from second on it on a hit, scoring from first on a double. People just think, well, just pick them up and put them down and run hard.
There's a, like, there's detail.
How do you hit the bag? Are you getting good angles? How good is your secondary? Like, there's so much.
[01:04:03] Speaker C: Where are your outfielders?
[01:04:06] Speaker D: Little arms.
[01:04:08] Speaker C: Yeah, knowing outfield arms. Where are your outfielders positioning?
[01:04:12] Speaker B: Like, not having to look funny.
[01:04:14] Speaker C: A rod went over the top with it. But, like, he would do that thing on second. We'd, like, stand and, like, line up with his arm. But, like, the dude could run the bases.
Say what you want, but, like, you run the bases. He was a really good baseball player. It was A little over the top and probably showmanship. Ish. But, you know, like, that stuff matters. And, you know, I think especially. And again, like, I caught and I made light of the fact that I didn't know what a double cut was. Like, the biggest adjustment I had to make was to your point earlier, Ryan is slowing the game down for myself. Like, I, I. My first, that first two, three, four inner squads. I'm like, yo, we're delivering pitches. Like, I mean, Mao, Ryan, Mao in inner squad. Like, we had to deliver every 12 seconds.
[01:04:58] Speaker B: Like, it was.
[01:04:59] Speaker C: We were moving. And I like, I mean, high school baseball. Like, you're talking every. Like, even now I go to high school games, I'm like, gosh, this game is dragging. Like, we're like 37 seconds in between pitches. Like, what are we doing here? But that f. Like, that first initial into it. Like, it doesn't seem like much when you say 12 seconds, but all of a sudden, like, all that information that you have to factor in, like, you have to get the pitch call, you got to get the pitch delivered. You have to know the sign system. If you have a run around second base, you got, like, all of those things have to factor in. And then if he shakes, like, oh, God, what do I do now? Like, back to the science system. Like, there's so much that goes into it. The game was just so sped up for me. And then it speeds you up, and then you're not being able to play at your best level. And, like, I think that's. It's something that you really need to as a player that's going to play in college, if you're, if you do that, like, that's one of the best things I can tell you. Like, you just. And there's no real.
Right. There's no.
What's the best word I'm looking for? There's no one way to do it. Like, everyone does it a different way, but learning how to slow the game down for yourself, and I think it's a tad bit easier if you're an infielder or an outfield. They're like, you know the game. The. You have a little bit more time. But as a catcher, like, it was like home. I have to know the sign system from the coach. I have to know our science system. I have to know. Then you have to figure out the pitchers you have. No, you've never caught any of these guys. All of a sudden, dudes are sinking balls and cutting balls, and you're like, what is happening right now?
But, like, that was my biggest thing that I had to. The biggest hurdle I had to make my freshman year was like, how do I slow this down for myself so that I can legitimately feel like a normal human being behind the plate and not somebody who doesn't belong because it was just so fast for me.
Guys run faster, they throw harder. You got to run. Beat guys down the line.
Gosh, no one backs up anymore.
[01:06:49] Speaker B: Do. Do you feel like those situations for freshmen are really important that they have an opportunity to fail in that environment?
[01:07:00] Speaker D: Oh, yeah.
[01:07:00] Speaker B: Is that the best way to coach them?
[01:07:03] Speaker D: Yeah, I think there's no better way to coach those guys than, you know, obviously seeing them fail and then also too. But like giving them direction, giving them guidance on, okay, yes, you had failure.
This is the way in which we will make you better, and this is the way in which we're going to do it from now on.
[01:07:22] Speaker B: So.
[01:07:22] Speaker D: Yeah, for sure.
[01:07:24] Speaker B: Yeah. I feel like sometimes it's one. I'm sure you talk to them. We need to be. This is a play. This is how we handle this situation.
Great chalkboard.
They almost need to go and mess it up to go, oh, that's not the right way to do it. Now I know exactly what coach is talking about.
I think that gets lost sometimes when you. When you're talking about the development piece and the coaching piece is that you know damn well that your freshman righty is going to come in and do something and you're okay with it. That's what I think kids don't understand is like, you've been doing this a long time. You know the situation you're putting kids in and you know that somebody's going to mess it up. And we're okay with it because now we've got a chance to coach it. And everybody, when that one guy messes it up, everybody gets to learn from that mistake. And it's not.
It's not an environment where you're looking to yell at a kid. It's where you're looking to correct the mistake so that we don't make it in the future. And I think there's a huge distinguishing factor between those two types of guys that we played for. Guys that I grew up with, like, you might get chewed for something that you had never done before. And like, man, I didn't even know I could do that. And I'm getting yelled at about it versus, I think now a lot of guys have taken the approach of let a guy fail, coach him up on it, put him back in that situation, let's see if he can get it right. If he doesn't get it right, let's continue to try to develop that for sure.
[01:08:52] Speaker D: Yeah, you're 100% right there.
[01:08:54] Speaker C: I think it forces too much perfection in a game where you're not, you're never really going to be perfect.
You know what I mean?
[01:09:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:09:04] Speaker C: If we're like. It's the whole point I think of being able to practice in inter squad and coach pitch and do all the like machine whatever you're doing. Like I like doing that stuff and I think I, I stole it from people of being able to do it so you can stop and actually coach things that happen in this game. Like you can't, you can't physically cover everything that's going to happen on a baseball field in the span of a season. It's just, it's not practical. And I think in a game where you're, it's built on failure to, to demand 100 perfection in practice all the time. Like you're never gonna get it right. Like and then you start creating more issues where you don't need issues. Like create a place where like it's okay to fail.
We're gonna coach you up there because like how are, how else are you gonna learn?
And it's everyone, everyone's gonna screw up.
Like I watched you screw up before.
It's not for perfect out there at the six hole position.
[01:10:03] Speaker B: I would say my 220 batting average would, would suggest things I could have improved upon.
[01:10:10] Speaker C: Mine too. But like you know, you know what I'm driving at from a coaching perspective. Like I think if you create a.
What's the word I'm looking for? I can't think tonight.
Not a situation.
Come on.
An environment. Thank you. An environment where it's okay to fail.
You can, I think that you can get a lot more out of people that like hey, like you're gonna screw up. It's just, it's when you make it 10 times that we're gonna have an issue. Like one or two we can live with but like we gotta start learning from our mistakes when we do that.
[01:10:46] Speaker B: For sure.
For sure.
[01:10:48] Speaker D: Yeah.
[01:10:49] Speaker B: Final question, Ron.
Or I shouldn't say question request. I would like you to impart some wisdom to the student athletes and parents who are listening and provide a little bit of advice as to the recruiting process. Any. You know, you've been doing this for 13, 14 years now. Like what advice would you give parents and players with regards to the recruiting process?
[01:11:17] Speaker D: Patience.
I would say that everybody's recruiting process is different. There's not.
Is the exact same. Some processes move faster than others, some move really slow.
I would say just patience and persistence and just trying to be able to find the right fit for you.
You know, everybody sometimes gets so caught up on God, I just need to go Division one, I need to go power four.
There's a lot of really good baseball out there. And, you know, I think just being able to go out and see as much baseball from as many different levels and then finding what best fits for you. One thing I always reflect back on is we used to do a junior day when I was at Millersville University.
And basically that junior day would always consist of having, you know, just all the rising juniors coming to a game. You know, I would speak, John would speak. We'd have financial aid admissions, our athletic director, and then we would play a PSAC game immediately after that.
And one thing that we would always start to start up the.
The.
I'm drawing a blank. The day with was we would just ask you, like, okay, hey, by. By a show of hands, how many guys have attended a Division 1 game here, here. And probably 95% of the people there would raise their hands. It's like, okay, how many have attended a Division 2 game? And it's probably now 30% of the hands are raised Division 3, you know, NAI, JUCO, etc. Etc. You know, obviously the number got less and less.
We always asked, we're like, okay, if you are a shortstop and you think you could play shortstop here, watch our shortstop and compare your skill set with our shortstop, and then you need to have an EVA in an honest evaluation with yourself if you can. If you project or think that you can be better than the guy in which we have on the field, right?
[01:13:30] Speaker B: And that.
[01:13:30] Speaker D: And this year we were like, and I'm not trying to, you know, pat my own back or certainly John's back, but like, that year we were really loaded. Like, you know, we had three guys that were in our rotation that were draft guys. Our shortstop was a draft guy, our right fielder played in the big leagues. You know, we had all conference players all over the field. So, you know, it was a little bit skewed as well. But I think, like, genuinely going to different levels of baseball and having honest evaluations with yourself of, hey, do you think that you can play on this team right now? But also, too, you need to go find the fit of, you know, if baseball weren't a thing, like, where are you going to be?
Where are you going to be happy. Right? Where are you going to be happy at? You know, so I think like just understanding that the recruiting process is different, the timeline is different for everybody. But then like going and finding a place in which you can truly play and, or be happy if baseball weren't there.
[01:14:29] Speaker B: I think that's some great advice.
Watching, watching college baseball, I think is, it's such low hanging fruit now with the accessibility and to your point, I think the, the crossover between levels is a lot more than people think it is. Right? Like top level psac, like, trust me, they can mix it up with a lot of Division 1 schools. And I'm not talking like just the bottom like, and I think that that's important for people to understand that because you did get, we do get caught in this label type of thing. Well, I want to play D1. Well, let's, let's look at the whole picture here and understand just how, how quality the baseball is across. And yeah, I think that's such an important, an important takeaway for people is just go watch it, right? ESPN plus. I mean you can watch a wild amount of games and if you, and
[01:15:27] Speaker D: you can watch games from many different levels. Like all the streaming services, like again, I, I think the biggest one is everybody's going to want to watch the ACC and the SEC and the Big 12. But like also too, like you said, like, there's plenty of services out there in which you can go watch a good Division 2 baseball game. You know, on February 1st, you know, two weeks before the rest of Division 1 opens up to where it's like, oh, okay, like, yo, there's some, there's some guys out here that have some serious ability. And like that's the other thing is like, hey, you guys want to get drafted, you got to go out and you got to figure out a way to get on the field.
If you're good enough, scouts are going to find you. It doesn't matter if you're at insert power 4 school here or NAI school, NAI school over on the other side of the spectrum, like there's really good, high caliber quality baseball players all over the place. And if they're good enough, they're like, if you're good enough, they're gonna find you 100%.
[01:16:30] Speaker B: Well, thank you, sir. Greatly appreciate your time. I'll be.
Me and Keith will both be torn internally when the Bulldogs face off against the Tigers in Princeton. I can't wait this upcoming spring. But no, I appreciate your time in. And obviously we'll be, we'll be keeping tabs and we'll be in touch. But thank you.
[01:16:51] Speaker D: Absolutely. I appreciate you. Appreciate you guys for having me on.
[01:16:54] Speaker B: Thanks for listening, everybody.
Thank you for listening this week. If you're watching on YouTube, go ahead and hit that subscribe button and smash that like button for us. Check us out on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, as well as Spotify. You can follow us on Twitter, Twitter and Instagram MD Baseball. If you want to find out what me and Keith do to help families and players navigate the recruiting process, go ahead and check us out on emdbaseball.com take a few minutes to check out our new online academy. I promise you'll get some good information out of that. Thanks again for listening. Check in with you next week.
