Episode 156: Interview with Cubs AA Offensive Player Development Coach Joe Curci

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Cali Gloves K a l I gloves.com [00:01:10] Speaker B: welcome to this week's edition of the Dugout Dish podcast. I'm Andy Kira Kidis, joined by my Wonderful Co host, Mr. Keith Glasser. How we doing? Great. [00:01:18] Speaker A: How are you? [00:01:19] Speaker B: Got a guest on tonight? Sure do. One of your, one of your former players who's, who's climbed the coaching ranks and we're excited to have a good conversation here. So I'll kick it over to you for the intro. Sure. [00:01:31] Speaker A: Tonight we are joined by. I'm going to stop short of saying one of my favorite players ever for in case there's anyone who listens to this podcast that coached or played for me, but very high up there and one of my favorite players that have ever played for me, played the game hard, played it the right way, was very good, was a captain for me in his last year. Was it two years or one? [00:01:56] Speaker C: One year. [00:01:57] Speaker A: One year. Covid screwed that up. But anyways, tonight we're joined by a former player of mine who is now coaching in the Chicago Cubs organization, Joe Kirchi. Joe, thanks for coming on, dude. [00:02:11] Speaker C: Yeah, thanks for, thanks for having me, gentlemen. Yeah, it's awesome. Big time listener of the podcast and happy to finally be able to get on. [00:02:21] Speaker A: So, so yeah, you know, I, I texted you and you were immediately was like I'd love to be on. I said, okay, let's do this. This was, this is the easiest guest get in the world. But I am, I'm, I'm super excited for you to be on with us. It's, it's nice to have, it's nice to see guys that, you know, play for you move on and get jobs and Start climbing the coaching ranks and, and having the success that you've had. So I'm super proud of you. I'm happy that you're, you're joining us on this podcast to talk baseball and, and we can call ourselves peers at this point in time. So I'm super proud of you. I'm happy you're here. So if you could take a couple minutes and just give the listeners a quick rundown of how you got to where you are now and then we'll, we'll get it rocking. [00:03:06] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. So started college career at Rollins College, small Division 2 school in Florida, Sunshine State Conference. Spent one year there. I red shirted and then I actually had a buddy from college, Jimmy woods, who. Or from high school, I'm sorry, Jimmy woods, who was at rpi, was a catcher, knew the school, knew of the program. Reached out to Jimmy, said, hey, I'm looking to transfer. Rollins isn't a fit for me right now. Like, what's the first base situation look like over there? And he said it was wide open. Put me in contact with Glass and then, you know, ended up spending four years there through Covid. So I got my undergrad and then stayed an extra year for grad school after that. So I finished up in 22 playing, playing first base, captain on the team. Very proud of. So thank you, Glass, for that. I was looking to play after I was on the older side of my year. I didn't really know what I wanted to do after college. Baseball was always kind of my only idea on what my future was going to hold. So ended up getting a master's degree in data analytics at rpi. Started kind of volume applying to anything I could see. Thinking analytics and baseball in a front office was going to be my path into professional baseball. Baseball ended up getting turned down from everything. It was pretty technical. All the interviews, all the questionnaires you would get, and it was pretty much, you know, above my, my ability as an analyst at that point. So I got some feedback from some of the teams I, I interviewed with and pretty much all of them said like, if I were you and I really want to get into baseball, especially on the analytics side, I would try to get some real world experience in coding in any sort of analytics, any sort of. So on that I accepted a job in Manhattan with Viva Systems, who did it was a partner, Salesforce. Up until recently, they do CRMs and analytics for health sciences companies. So you know your big pharmas. So I was in marketing data analytics. I basically wrote import libraries in Their own coding language. Spent seven months doing that. I told myself when the next cycle of jobs opened up in professional baseball, I was going to reapply and try again then. So that's always in the off season. October through January is really when the bulk of them come out. So would have been the winner of 2022. I was living in Manhattan. I wasn't loving my job. I committed to applying back to things. Got a variety of interviews with a variety of teams and a variety of departments, and the Marlins reached out for a job in pro scouting. Interviewed for that 8, 10 interviews. Ended up getting the job. So I picked up and I moved to Jupiter, Florida in January 2023. Great experience. Definitely saw the game through a different lens than as a player. Super valuable, especially now in the coaching side. Just, just like I said, seeing, seeing the way orgs operate and, you know, how they value different players and different tools and such. Also your ability to, like, evaluate talent and players and see, you know, projectability. So that was awesome. Spent a year doing that. My contract was up at the end of October. I didn't really knew or I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Really wanted to get in the coaching side. I felt like I was away from the game a little too much. Really missed being on the field. So I went online and I said, college baseball is going to be where I'm going to stick. And so, funny enough, the first day I went on and I looked at jobs and openings. There was an opening at the College of St. Rose in Albany, New York. They recently lost their assistant coach in an opening. I knew Glass had a pretty good relationship with their head coach, my friend now, Wayne Jones. So I reached out to Glass, said, hey, I'm going to apply to this. Could you put me in contact with Wayne? That all happened pretty quick. In about a week or two, I had accepted the job, which was awesome. So in September, right after the semester started, I moved up to. I moved back, I guess to. To Albany and, you know, hit the ground running in the fall. And then in that same semester in December of that year, the school announced that they were closing down after 120 years. So, you know, I was scrambling a little bit. Obviously we had a lot of players who still had to finish college somewhere else. A lot of them wanted to play baseball. Pretty much most of them did. You know, kudos to Wayne. He handled the majority of that. But, you know, we're pretty proud of the fact every guy on that team that wanted to continue playing in college had an Opportunity to go somewhere. So that was a feat in itself, but, yeah. So the school announced early December they were closing. We didn't know about the season. Semester ended. I went back home to Chicago. So our director of hitting here with the Cubs, Justin Stone, I actually played for growing up. He's from Illinois. He has a travel program in Chicago that I played for. I've known him for the last 15 years. So when I went home, a lot of the stuff that I originally taught and my philosophy and hitting came from him. So when I went home, my dad was like, hey, it's probably a good idea to get in contact and just, you know, see if there's any. Anything new that he's teaching or just try to pick his brain for a little bit. So I got in contact with Justin, went into Wrigley, and then that conversation kind of turned into an interview pretty quick. Met some people in the front office. They asked my timeline on, you know, when I could, if there was an opportunity, when I would be able to take it. I said I couldn't leave St. Rose. Already put in a lot of work, and those kids were going through something, so it would have had to be at the end of the year. They said, okay, we'll talk about 2025 and then go back to the semester we're playing the season. I end up getting the job as the manager for the Glens Falls Dragons in the Perfect Game League. So that was going to be my plan for that summer and then kind of just go from there. I was looking at a lot of different, maybe, you know, grad assistant positions and try to get another master's or, you know, even as far as like a PhD in biomechanics or kinesiology, just to try to, you know, morph or, like, build up the resume a little bit. Cubs ended up calling around April of 24 and said, hey, we'll defer the offer till your season's over. So season ended, we lost in the playoffs to. To pace, and on a Tuesday, I left for Arizona that Saturday. And then ever since then, I've been. I've been a Chicago Cub. [00:11:36] Speaker B: Were you a Cubs guy growing up? [00:11:41] Speaker C: So it's funny, I actually grew up. I grew up a mile and a half away from Wrigley, so we're in walking distance. So we went to a bow load, a Wrigley, you know, Cubs games. My parents are from Philly, and they met at Villanova, where they went to college. So we grew up, die hard, you know, Philadelphia fans and everything. Big Eagles fans, Phillies So we'd always go, you know, back when I was growing up, they would always play, [00:12:10] Speaker A: they [00:12:10] Speaker C: would always play like a four game set at Wrigley. So we would always catch those games. But Cubs were always, you know, like, without telling my dad. They were my second team. He hated them growing up, but I loved them. [00:12:26] Speaker B: That's fair. Yeah, totally, totally get that. The analytics background, that's cool. We'll have to chat about that after because I got a little background that as well. But no, it's a, that's a cool path, man. And you know, Keith speaks just incredibly highly of you. So I'm, I'm excited to get, to get rolling on this thing. But Keith, if you got anything you want to add before we start firing away. No. [00:12:54] Speaker A: All right. Said my piece on the front. It'll probably come out more in this discussion. [00:12:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, you've. So you've seen it, you've seen it as a player at the college level, you've seen it as a coach at the college level, and now you're in pro ball. And one of the things I'd love to get your thoughts on is what are some of the big differences that you see from amateur hitters, call them college hitters, high school hitters, to guys that you work with on a daily basis now? Like, what are the big differences in how they go about their business in the batting cage and kind of their preparation to go and get their work in? [00:13:33] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think it, you know, I think everyone says it when they talk about the different levels of baseball. They're like, you know, the speed of the game is just so much different and guys move the same. They have a lot of similar actions. Right. Like high school, college, professional level. But the speed at which they do it and the athleticism is just, it continues to grow. I mean, even the difference in, you know, rookie ball and low A compared to double A and aaa and then obviously the major leagues, like, you know, it's as big, as big of a gap as high school to the professional level, you know, I'd say, I'd say all these, all these guys that you see, they'll all have like a specific thing. So if they're not refined in, you know, their swing or their approach or their routines at the professional level, you can see, you know, what the scouts have seen with the athleticism, like the raw talent, and you're like, okay, well, you know, you refine one end of that, then the player will be whole. I think the biggest difference, at least from just the work standpoint of high school, college and pro is especially at the upper levels, guys know what they need. So I think especially, you know, high school kids are hitting, um, and I was at fault at it even in college. And you'll see, you'll see a drill, you'll see something that you'll want to try, which is great. There are a lot of good stuff out there, a lot of good hitting information now more than ever. But a lot of that is not necessarily, you know, conducive to the way you move and how your swing works, right? So guys, you know, I like saying swings or snowflakes, like every single one is unique, Every swing is different. There's no swing that's the same. And you see it at the professional level. Guys who have been in it for a while, like the cage work is just so productive. It's productive and refined from they're going in, they're saying, okay, you know, I have, I have a problem. Or when I, when I'm in trouble, when I'm not at my best, right? Like, my front shoulder rips out and I topspin balls, I'm a right handed hitter, I topspin balls to the left side of the field and I hit a lot of ground balls. It's like, okay, well let's break that down. It's like, so if my front shoulder flies out, I'm probably compensating for something or my path is bad. It's like, okay, if you're compensating for something, right, and you're trying to create time, you're probably late. So these guys all have an idea on what they're trying to work, what they're trying to work on. And it's the same thing at any level. Life, you know, you like, your only constraint is time, right? So even at the professional level, like, you know, we can hit all day, but there are other domains that need to be touched, right? So you have 45 minutes of a cage block and it's like, okay, as a high schooler, and again, I was at fault of this. It's like, I'm going to take seven rounds of flips straight up and then I'm going to hit some machine or hit some bp. And like, if I'm on the barrel that day, that was a good day. That was a productive day. I got better. And then college, it gets better, right? We add like more constraints, different drill work. But at the professional level, you just have so many different heads. Like all the different coaches who have seen so many different drills that these kids go in and it's like, all right, you have 35 minutes. So we have five rounds to work with before we touch a machine or, you know, any sort of challenge work with an army. So how can we make that as effective and efficient as possible? So it's just refining the routine and knowing exactly what you're trying to accomplish with it. [00:17:26] Speaker A: If you're the parent of a high school baseball player with college aspirations, you already know the recruiting process can feel overwhelming. Endless showcases, nonstop emails, and big promises with very little clarity. That's why we recommend Diamond College Showcase Camps, the nation's premier academic baseball showcase. At Diamond College showcases, every college coach in attendance is there with a purpose to coach, instruct, evaluate, and recruit. Every player is seen, every player is engaged, and every family leaves with a clear understanding of where they truly stand. This is not a mass camp. College coaches run the drills, evaluate every athlete, and provide honest professional feedback that you can trust. Diamond College showcase camps are built for serious student athletes who value both baseball and and academics. If you're looking for transparency, clarity, and a recruiting experience that respects your time and your players future, Diamond College showcase is the place to be. To learn more, visit diamond collegeshowcase.com. [00:18:30] Speaker B: Now, that makes a ton of sense. And I don't know if I was able to break it down to that level of detail as a coach, but one of the things I can say at least anecdotally, is working with individual guys, some of them, you know, who ultimately ended up going and playing professional baseball is you. You try to find things that are specific to them, what makes them feel good, you know, what kind of reinforces the movements that they're trying to create. Because to your point, and I think this is a little bit of a flaw with, with the hitting world at times is we try to fit people into a box. But I love how you said it like Snowflake, like, everybody moves a little bit different. Everybody's got a little bit of a different way that they create space, the way they create time, and figuring out what works for a guy. And I think that, you know, you stated it perfect. Like, the high school guy goes in there and they get swings off because swings seem productive. But as you go up, you refine the focus of what you're trying to accomplish and reinforcing movements that you want to be able to replicate. And, you know, I think high school guys who are listening to this, like, I think that's a huge takeaway for you is understand that volume and just being in the Cage, you know, it's better than not doing anything. But if you have a decent understanding or your swing or you have somebody that can help you define a routine, you're going to get a lot more. You're going to get a lot more out of that time that you're in the cage. [00:19:56] Speaker C: Yeah, a hundred percent. [00:19:59] Speaker A: I think the other, like, it comes with the maturation too. Right. Like, it's not just the. You just don't magically figure that out when you become a professional. Right. Like, there's a process along the way where you start to figure that part out. And, you know, I think a lot of people are guilty of doing it in high school because you're not necessarily surrounded. And this isn't a knock on anybody that you're hitting with, but, like, you're not necessarily surrounded all the time by people who are at the top of their field, are really good at what they do. And it becomes a difference in college where you are sort of like, you have a specific hitting coach and you have other guys that are going to be there. You have other hitters that are in there that you're going to try to watch and emulate and see what they do. And I think one of the big differences, and this has actually been a topic of conversation with a lot of people I've talked to recently, like, you're part of an offense in college where I think if you're a guy who's going to play in. You're. You're in high school and you're likely going to play in college, or you are. The likelihood of you being the. One of the best hitters on the team is high. So there's not really a lot of things that it's going to be like, well, we need to work on this with this kid, or we need to work on this, like, just let him go, bang it and let's see what happens. And then when you get to college, your flaws get exposed real quick during your freshman fall, where older guys are going to figure out real quick, like, oh, he's super late on. Like, he can't get timing on fastball, he can't hit a break ball, and you just going to get spun to death in the fall. And I think, like, that's where it start. You start to work in that maturation of, like, okay, what are my flaws? How do I get those. How do I decrease those deficiencies in my swing while simultaneously increasing my. Where I'm good and keeping those things sharp? And, you know, I'm not going to say this as truth, but there's some, some truth in what I hear out of your voice that is, is twisted from what I used to say, because coaching is just stealing things. But, like, one of my big rules was if you're going to go hit, you have to be working on something. Like, you can't just go into the cage to swing. To swing. That's not something that is ever going to get you better at hitting. Like, that's like, to what your point, what you're saying? Like, that's a high school mindset of just, I'm just going to go swing and that's productive. Like, no, man, like, your front side, you're losing your front side here, you're super long on your bat path is starting, you know, at your hip back here, and just you're swinging a sickle through the zone, whatever it might be. But like, there has to be some semblance of a plan of what you're trying to accomplish when you're going into the cage to hit. And it just continues as to your point, Joe, like, you continue to refine that process as you get older. And the more you level up, that process gets more refined in the things it is that you're working on so that you can find more success in game. But I think that it's. I think you're dead right on everything you said. I just want to add that, like, I think some of it comes with the maturation process. Like, if you're a high school kid and you're. Or even a college kid and you're listening to like, there's, there's a maturation process to what your swing does and how it works and then how that plays into the offense in which you're a part of. Like, if you're just going to be a singles doubles guy, like, go be a singles doubles guy, you ain't going to be a dude who's going to jump the yard. You ain't hitting in the three hole. I ain't paying you to drive in runs. I'm paying you to get on base so that the guys I'm paying to drive in runs can drive you in. And like, that becomes part of what your offensive approach and how you go about doing things, the pitches you're looking for, all of those, because it's going to be different guy to guy, but that's just the maturation of where you are in this game. And I think that's the, the fun part of being an offensive coach in college is like trying to figure out all those pieces and how they play together and get guys to be the best versions of themselves to help you win games. [00:23:53] Speaker B: There was, there was always something. The better hitters that I had a chance to coach, there was always something very deliberate about how they went about their business. And I don't think it was a coincidence, looking back on it, that the guys who ended up getting paid to play baseball, the work that they put in, always outside of the practice window, it was always the extra work. It was always showing up at 7:30 in the morning to get swings in before class and whatever it is. But there was always something deliberate. It was, hey, I want to come in, I want to work on this specifically today so that I feel good going into practice because, you know, we all know that the, the, the practice time is team time, but that, that deliberateness, and I think you're driving at that as well, that guys go in with a very specific plan of like, hey, here's what I'm trying to work on today. [00:24:42] Speaker A: How. [00:24:43] Speaker C: Yeah, 100 and it's. [00:24:45] Speaker B: I'm sorry, no, go ahead, go ahead. [00:24:48] Speaker C: No, I was, I was, I was just reaffirming. Yeah, 100 and, and you know, you see it, you know, to glasses point, you see it at the professional level also. Like kids, young kids, high school kids, we sign or, you know, international signees that come over and they're still teenagers. You know, the difference between them at 19, at least from, you know, take away the talent and all that from the cage work and the routine work compared to when they're in low A or high A two years later, is head and shoulders, right? It changes and, and everything that they do and everything we try to get them to do, you know, again, going back to Glass's point is, is angled towards performance, right? So like anything in practice, like I can, I can swing 85 miles an hour and I can have EVS of 120, you know, but if I can't hit a fastball that's above 95, I'm going to have a problem right at the professional level. Now, you know, the, the thresholds are different at college and amateur, but it's the same concept of, right at the end of the day, you know, you don't get paid to hit it five, you get paid to hit at seven. So everything that, you know, the, the cage work and the routine work, drill packages, all that, even, you know, adjustments, there is a time and place for things in the off season. But when you're ramping up, getting ready to play Games, it's like, okay, how can I be as efficient as possible with this time to be able to perform at seven. [00:26:23] Speaker B: Yeah, the five to seven things, huge. Especially in today's age when, you know, so much of what kids do is, is showcase related and, you know, you see guys with really good numbers. And we've had a, a long list of college coaches who've come on here and talked about, well, yeah, those are great, but we need to see it when somebody's trying to get you out. And I imagine that doesn't change for you. Like, results are what help guys move through the levels. And you know, it's your job to get them prepared and make sure that they're ready to go. But at the end of the day, when, you know, 7 o' clock rolls around, they. They got to know that they put that work in and are able to kind of translate some of the, the raw tools that they have and hopefully they show up on game day. You guys probably, you know, like every pro organization have a ton of data, and we're kind of talking about the data with the exit velos and the bat speed and stuff. What are, what are some of the data points that you focus in on that give you good information on a guy and, and how do you use that as a coach to be able to get across a message or help them, maybe make an adjustment? [00:27:31] Speaker C: Yeah, no, it's great. You know, a lot of it. I love, I love the data. Obviously, I, like I said a lot of my background's in it, so I have that advantage of knowing what data looks like and being able to parse through it, which is great. It helps a lot. You know, we have a variety of technologies that track anything from, you know, bad angles and, you know, very similar, like, blasts. So you talk about like, bad angles, bad velocities, batted ball quality. And then we also have data on, you know, how the body moves, and that's in velocities, angles, coordinates, all of that. So pretty much anything you could think of, we, we are capable of either having or figuring out. And, you know, that's every, pretty much every professional organization at this point. The Cubs are great. They, they, we, we really believe in it, which is awesome. But it's, it's. So the way we look at it and the way I look at it as a coach, I'll say that is like, you know, it first started hitting. First started is like, all right, I'm taking a swing. I have someone subjectively standing there looking at it saying, you know, this is good, this is bad. And then it turned into, okay, well, you know, I can look at it. I know what I want my swing to look like. I know what I want it to feel like. Like, I can have a mirror there and, you know, video, right. Became an objective way to look at swings. So it's just another lens, all the data. So there are times, especially me, and I know this, where I'm so infatuated by a lot of the different technology and the data that we have, especially in, like, practice settings where, you know, I'll look at the numbers more so than look at the swing sometimes. But I try to use it as, like, a secondary view of things. So just another. You know, I was talking to a player today about some of the data we were collecting on his swing and how it should just be perceived as another lens. You know, I love. Right. Like, it's. I know that today's day and age, like, exit velocities are important. Guys are hitting balls harder than ever. Guys are moving better than ever. And in order to hit a ball hard, you have to swing hard, which is important, you know, so bat speeds are great angles of bats. But the main things that we look at, like, you know, especially. Especially with kids that are coming in or guys that we have made a big body change, right? Or new players, you kind of have to let them play and see, you know, if the swing works. Like, there's a lot of unicorns out there, especially at the upper levels and especially in the show of guys who do things different, right? Like, so, you know, there's this. There might be one guy. Two guys have the same ops. One guy swings incredibly flat bat. The other guy swings an incredibly vertical bat. So I think it goes onto the piece of, like, each swing being unique and then figuring out, like, what it is they're targeting in their work, what it is you need to. What it is that they're doing well when they're on, right? And then making sure they don't waver off of that. Now, that can be anything between angles, velocities, coordinates. But, yeah, there's a variety of things I can go on and on about it. [00:31:09] Speaker B: So, I mean, to a certain extent, do you use a lot of the data that you have as a baseline? Like, once you get to understand a player from a data perspective, you kind of get a picture of, like, hey, this is what the best version of him looks like. And now you can use that data to go, hey, we're struggling on a certain pitch in a certain area that you're usually good at. Well, the data is telling me, hey, your approach angles is different or your bat speed's gone down. Like, you know, are you hurt or, you know, are you able? Is that kind of how you use it to a certain extent or one way that you use the data? [00:31:45] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, 100%. So, like, in season, you know, it's. It's great. We have. Like I said, we have a bunch of different things that track. But it's like, okay, it's always like, figuring out the why, right? So you. You look at. You look at a swing, and it's like, man, he. He is. He has been on the ground the last two weeks, and he's usually. He's usually not, right? And it's like, okay, well, let's take it a step further. It's like, all right, he's on the ground. We look at it. It's like, okay, he. He. The approach or the. The attack angles are super low. Contact points are deeper. Like, what does that mean? Then you look and it's like, all right, his timing metrics are off. Like, he's late on the fastball. He's usually out in front. And so in that, it's like, all right, you know, timing tends to be. Especially at the upper levels, timing tends to be 99 of what's going on. Right. The body will adjust and try to compensate when you're late. But lower than that, it's like, you know, a lot of what we do in the off season with guys who have just had a season is we come in and it's like, we're not necessarily. Some guys need swing adjustments, right? And, like, you got to put them in better positions to succeed, I guess. So, you know, we'll track data on that. It's like, we. We won't chase metrics per se, but it's like, okay, we. We know there are certain things that are maybe not directly correlated to success, but are correlated to success in, you know, most instances. So if we can, you know, if we can change. If you hit a lot of ground balls and you have very little vertical bat angle, right? You're like. You're always going to be on the ground, right? Like, unless you're a unicorn, right. Most often not. You're going to be on the ground. You're. [00:33:34] Speaker A: You're. [00:33:35] Speaker C: Your deviation of launch angle is going to be extreme. You're going to pop balls up and be on the ground, right? So it's like, okay, well, the easiest fix then would be tilt, move the plate and give Them some vba, right, to try to tighten that up. So the metrics are great from a standpoint of. All right, we're trying to adjust things. Like we have drill work that we're going to do with you. And then as we do this week to week, right, we're tracking it. It's basically like, you know, think about it like an S and C programming standpoint. It's like, okay, you know, we want him to lose 10 pounds, right. In any sport, it's like. And we're putting him on this program, we have this nutrition plan, right. Every two weeks we're going to do a weigh in to see if you're losing weight or we're going to do a DEXA to see if, you know, your, your lean tissue is going up and your, your fat mass is going down. It's the, you know, very similar concept to that. [00:34:30] Speaker B: No, I love that. I love the idea because I think it's good for the youth. I think it's a great way to track progress. I think from a data perspective, like you have kids who exit velos and arm speeds and all that kind of stuff, which is a piece of the recruiting tool, it's a piece of the evaluation tool. But I think sometimes we get so fixated on the end result that we lose the development component of it. And being able to track things over the course of a couple weeks, like you get to the strength and conditioning portion. If you're a young kid and your Exit below is 85 and a month later it's 90 and you lifted and you did some stuff. All right, well, we're seeing, we're doing something right. So if you start to see the trend in the right direction or if you see a guy after two weeks of putting him on his hidden plan, he starts to move in the direction that you're getting him to. It's a clue like, all right, this is starting to work. Or if it's not working, then I'm sure you probably go back to the drawing board and go, all right, is there something else we can do to get this guy closer to where we need him to be? [00:35:34] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. It's nail on the head. It's, it's basically, you know, it's not the end all be all. They're another lens to look at things. And it's a great way to track progress. So it's a great way to see when guys are off and it's a great way to track progress from. All right, is this working or not? And like you said, if it's not working, like, okay, let's adjust it, let's try some other things. Let's see if that works. Two weeks later, that doesn't work, right? Like, and it, you know, it's great. Like nothing's going to happen in a day in, in any metric or any swing change or, you know, adjustment. But you know, being able to track it over periods of time when they've gotten reps, you know, quality reps is, is huge because it just, you know, it confirms that, okay, we're moving in the right direction. [00:36:28] Speaker B: How much of a learning curve is there for a lot of the players from a data perspective? Do you feel like a lot of guys are coming into the system a lot more in tune with the technology that you have and like a better understanding of it, or do you find yourself having to kind of teach guys up on that? Because I imagine there's a ton of value in them actually understanding the data as you try to overlay the physical change that you're trying to make. [00:36:54] Speaker C: Yeah, it's, you know, it varies per guy and it's the same with, with anything, right? You're giving a guy an advanced scouting report on a pitcher. Some guys want to hear, you know, every single pitch, what the shape is, what the velocity is, what the out usage, all that. And some guys are like, okay, what's the velo on the fastball? What does it do? What's his out pitch? Right, like, so it's, it's very similar in that where it's a case by case. Some guys, you know, you can be very upfront, obviously, you know, we're transparent with every guy at the end of the day, like it's their swing, it's their career. So we're very transparent with what they want to hear. Some guys can just handle it more than others. So, you know, two guys might be working on the same thing and I might get a little more, you know, in depth about what we're literally trying to chase than with one guy than the other. You know, with, with the, on the tech side with, you know, the batted ball stuff, you know, blasts, things like that. Guys are pretty in tune with it now. It's been around for a while and you know, we have a lot of, a lot of stuff going on at the lower levels and when guys come in and especially now with like, you know, back, back, like to your guys side on, on the recruiting side of things, like you see it across the board on Perfect Game and, and all of these other, you know, recruiting platforms where they have a bunch of these metrics, so players are pretty much growing up in it. So by the time they get to us, like, whether they've either used all of it or they are familiar with it. [00:38:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Back to the, the seven o' clock hitter stuff, and I mentioned this before we got on the pod. I'm fascinated by the swing decisions, and I've been out of it long enough that we didn't. We didn't have the ability to really track that the way that you guys are able to track it now. A lot of the stuff that we did is me charting pitches in the dugout and trying to communicate pitch mix and tendencies. And, hey, this guy's really struggling with his breaking ball today. Or, hey, the scout reports that we got is a little bit off. We need to make an adjustment throughout the game based on how a guy's doing it. But the swing decision stuff, how do [00:39:22] Speaker A: you, [00:39:25] Speaker B: how do you leverage that data to give guys the right information so that on. When the lights are on, they're able to go in there and be prepared? And then also, do you find that the swing decision stuff is really the ultimate separator for guys as they continue to progress? Is that the thing that you would. My assumption that it would be a big separator for guys, but is that something that you actually experience? [00:39:53] Speaker C: Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting. At the level I've coached at the last two years, it's obviously the lowest level in the States. So you'll get a lot of guys who are here learning new pitches, guys who are here trying new grips, new kids. You don't have a lot of data on, you know, the draft happens, we get all the influx of all of them. So it has kind of been like more on the college side. Like, when I was at St Rose, we didn't have. We didn't have synergy. I know that's a big thing now in the college game. So what I would do before every series was for like 12 hours, and I'm sure you guys are very familiar with, with doing this yourselves was find the, the, you know, the last broadcast when the kid was. The kid was pitching, and try to get some sort of scouting report on the guy. So it's, it's a little different down here. I mean, at the, the upper levels, like, it's interesting. We have, you know, it goes back to the guys perceiving different information, I guess, just differently. But like having a conversation with them, understanding. Understanding the kid and then understanding, like, what he can process and what he wants to process. Some guys, if you give him five shapes, he's going to be lost up there. Regardless of, you know, how in depth you are about it, some guys really, really need to know it. I think it's really important to understand, to understand the basics of it. Like all of our guys know, like we have a pretty uniform way of relaying information, like on the advanced side. And so it's good, like as they climb up through the org, you know they're hearing the same verbiage, which is awesome. It helps them, you know, not feel like they're getting lost or having to learn a new system. But you see it in guys and it's, it's really fun to be around big leaguers and then, you know, guys who game for a really long time, like 10 year minor league players, 8 year minor league players and listen to their process and just have them like talk to you about it and like how they game plan. But it goes back to guys understanding what they dominate. Like, like you were saying, both of you were saying earlier, like, even in the routine work, it's like, know your superpower and dominate it, right? Like I could be really, really good at hitting, you know, hitting balls at the first floor, right? The bottom of the zone, right. I'd be a good low ball hitter. And we know that we're facing a starter who has carry and he lives at the top of the zone, right? He's trying to get you to chase and it's gonna feel like it's like, okay, well, like regardless of that being a fastball, it's probably not the best pitch to swing at for you. But if I have a very flat swing and I like getting guys at the top of the zone and I can handle carry, like, that'll be good. So, you know, need to be reminded what their superpowers are because it's hard, right? It's a, it's a long season and there's failure in that. But it just goes back to them being what they're able to process and like dominating your strengths. [00:43:25] Speaker B: You mentioned dominating the strengths. And that's I take it to. I think it's a really cool way to look at it because I think sometimes we pivot towards what does the other guy do really well. And obviously that needs to factor into a certain extent, you know, you know, if a guy's got really good breaking ball command and he can cross count you and he can kind of throw that thing whenever he wants to. Understanding that, but then also understanding like, hey, this is where I'm really good and this is what I need to kind of try to attack early in the, early in the count or, you know, in a specific at bat when the situation calls for it. And I think sometimes what can happen is you focus on what is the guy across from me going to do to me versus what am I really good at. And I can kind of take the offense to him, if you will. I think sometimes as hitters, you can get caught in between with like, well, his breaking ball is really good, like he's going to have to throw it. But if you're not a good breaking ball hitter, but you do really good against certain parts of the zone of velocity, you know, it's another way to look at it. And I, I love that approach, especially early count stuff, like, really starting to understand, like, hey, this is what I'm really good at and I'm going to be really good at what I'm good at. [00:44:39] Speaker C: Yeah, no, and, and it's, it's about that. It's about, you know, it all goes back to understanding how to play the game, right? Like hitting is, it's just you versus the pitcher. It's a matchup. It's chess. And, you know, you could be a 30 home run guy, but you're not going to get there from, you know, swinging like crazy and taking a chance on every single pitch. So it's about understanding, understanding the matchup, saying, all right, like, he's going to live away. You really like to hammer the ball and he's going to live away. But two, oh, you know, he's going to give you a fastball, right? So if you, you're going to be on defense for most of the night, but if it's too low, like, take a chance, right? Like, stuff like that. So it's about being, you know, playing the game, being a professional hitter at any level, right. Amateur college, and taking pride in your approach and like you're saying, dominate, dominate your strengths and understand what you can handle. Like, there are guys in the big leagues and I, I can't confirm because I haven't been there, but I'm sure there are some pitchers when, you know, Paul Skeens is on, like, there are probably times where guys go up there and they're saying, I'm sitting one pitch here and if I don't get it and he KS me up on three, that's fine. Like, I tip my cap, but the only way I'm going to be able to get him is I stay on the fastball and try to go left center with it, whatever it might be. Right. But it's about going up there, taking information. You get to understand what your approach should be and then sticking to it. Because if you do that over a large volume of at bats, you know, properly, then most often times you're going to be successful. [00:46:26] Speaker A: Yeah, that's why this game is hard. Like, not, not that, like, not to make a joke out of it, but that, like, that's why this game is hard. And I think some of the things that you're driving at are a. They're all true. And I think where people get jammed up is where you don't have that instant success. And we want to change things or change our approach or get away from the things it is that we do well, all because it might not be going well in the moment. And you know, I've seen people go over four, over five, over six, and like, we want to make wholesale changes on things. And it's like, well, let's break down your at bats. Like, you, you take an O fastball, you swing over a slider in the dirt, and now you're instantly down O2. And on defense, they elevate a fastball, you ball it and then they spin another slider away that they force weak contact on. And like, you're swinging at low percentage pitches because you're putting yourself in a position because your approach is not good. Like, you're a guy who likes to get swings off early in counts. Like, let's find a pitch early in account that we can handle and get a swing off on it. And I think that, you know, especially a lot of younger hitters, we drive like the, the success drives what your approach is versus your approach driving what your success is. And I think that's hard for a lot of people to understand of, like, your success is never going to come solely based off of the success that you have. Because the reality is, like, and we've talked to, like, you've heard me say this a thousand times, Joe. Like, we have no control over the baseball after we hit it. Like, yeah, we want to hit it hard, yeah, we want to do things, but like, we have no control over shortstop ranging, glove side diving, making a phenomenal play and throwing you out like, hey, great swing, got it off, hit it hard, but that dude made a really nice play. Like, there's nothing you can do about it. Or the center fielder ranging back and diving and robbing you of a double. Like that happens because for all of those, you're going to get jammed where, you know, with metal, you probably should have shattered a bat and you might be strong enough to punch it over the first baseman's head and dunk it in for a double, and it's like they even out. But we get away from. And I feel like this at the younger levels in high school and especially younger hitters in college, where we don't necessarily have a refined approach. And while we're trying to figure it out, like, we. We think that the success drives what it is that our approach should be versus, hey, here's what I'm good at. This is what I should develop my approach around. And that can change as you get older, as you mature, as you get bigger, as you get stronger. Like, hey, man, you're not quick enough to get to a ball on the inner third right now. So, like, we're just going to look for balls that are away from us because that's where we're good. And we can stay behind that baseball and drive it the other way and vice versa. Like, hey, you're super quick. Like, let's just, you know, let's look for. Let's cheat for a ball on the inner third and try to get the bad head out and get to it as you get older. Like, hey, we can play. We have a little bit more plate discipline, we can handle balls a little bit more, we can handle spin. And that's where, like, your approach can become refined that way and along with a multitude of others. But I think the key is, like, the success that you're going to have is never going to be solely based. Like, it can't drive your approach. You have to have an approach of like, okay, this is. This is my process, this is my plan. This is what I'm looking for in this at bat. And then go out and execute it. If it doesn't work, it doesn't mean we have to make wholesale changes on our approach. We just have to figure out what was going on. To your point, it's chess. How did he just get me out? And how can I. Go ahead, go ahead and get him the next time. Like, all right, he spun two breaking balls to me first pitch. Every at bat here, like, the likelihood of you getting a third one if it's the same guy probably is pretty low. Like, he's already started you with two breaking balls. He's probably thinking, eh, he might be sitting breaking ball here. I'm going to try to throw a fastball by him, like, sit dead, red fastball and see what happens. If he flips one In. All right, whatever. He got me. But it can't fundamentally change your. [00:50:38] Speaker B: Your. [00:50:38] Speaker A: The. The success or the. The non success you're having can't fundamentally change your approach. Now the caveat to all this, if your, if your approach is horrible, then yes, we need to change. We make. Need to. Wholesale changes there. But if you have a legitimate plan that you're trying to execute every time you go to the plate, then you. We don't need to make wholesale adjustments all the time just based off of whether or not you're getting hits. [00:51:04] Speaker B: Parents, if you've ever felt overwhelmed trying to navigate youth sports, there's a new resource to designed just for you. Team Match. Team Match is an online platform built to streamline how families find the right youth sports teams by location, sport and skill level all in one place. It also provides a safe, organized space for kids to share their accomplishments, stats and highlights, while giving coaches and teams a clear way to connect with athletes who are the right fit. Less searching, less stress, more. More confidence in the process, youth sports just got simpler for families. This is Team Match. Check it out today@teammatch sports.com I hope [00:51:46] Speaker A: that makes sense to people. [00:51:50] Speaker B: I think, I think we're in it. I agree with you, Keith. Like, you get kids that as soon as we fail, we just chalk it up to like, well, I have to make an adjustment. And sometimes it's just that hitting is really hard, you know, and that pitchers are allowed to be good. Like, pitchers are allowed to execute pitches. And, you know, it can really kind of be that. But you, you hit on something about guys sitting on pitches, Joe, with, you know, you use schemes as an example. And I go back to a kid that I had at William Mary, who for whatever reason, I don't know if it was a vision thing or just antsy. He was a, he was a freshman at the time, but he really struggled with spin. Like, really, really struggled with spin. But he could hit velocity if it was straight. He could go out of the zone and barrel it up. And I remember having a conversation with him and saying, if you don't ever swing at another breaking ball, like, we're okay with you. We're okay with you going down looking if a guy's going to glove. Strike three. Breaking balls. And it kind of gave him the license to be like, oh, it's okay if I just. If I strike out and a guy throw three straight breaking balls, the coach isn't going to be mad at me. But it was kind of the inverse way of telling him, hey, your Strength is that you can handle velocity. It doesn't matter how hard you're throwing, you can handle that. And I think it gave him the license to free himself up to go, okay, I don't have to swing at that pitch. I don't have to get the barrel going super quick. I can really just focus in on one thing. And I think it helped him. You know, he had some moments for sure where he still struggled with it, but I think it. It kind of freed him up to do what he did really well. [00:53:32] Speaker C: Yeah, and. And no, it's a great point. I think, you know, it all goes back to dominating your superpower understanding. Like, if a guy goes, you know, rail, rail, rail, like on. On the black, three pitches, you know, those are good takes. Like, oh, we're not looking for something on the rail unless you're. You're sitting it, you know, oh, one, same thing. It's like, put together a good at bat. Two, it's like, all right, now we're playing a little bit of defense. Like, you're gonna have to fight it off. But, I mean, if a pitcher makes three pitches, which. Which at any level is tough to do, sometimes you have to tip your cap, right? Like, you go 3 for 10 for the rest of your life. I know we've all heard this for our entire life, but you go three for ten the rest of your life, you're in the hall of Fame, and pitchers will make mistakes. So, like, for every time they go rail, rail, rail, you're going to get three at bats where they're going to leave something up, you know, over the plate, and you're gonna be able to handle it. So dominate what you're good at, and that leads to success. [00:54:43] Speaker B: Do you see any commonalities between guys? Like, the minor league season, for those of you who aren't familiar, is a long and arduous path that you have to undertake over the course of the year. And, you know, there's the inevitable ups and downs. And I think the goal, and correct me if I'm wrong, would be to just try to minimize how deep those valleys are and try not to get too far off base for what you do. Do you see any commonalities for guys who are able to avoid those big valleys? Like, anything that they do from a preparation perspective, anything that they do prior to games, during games, that allows them to kind of hit that level of consistency that is really probably the separator for most guys. [00:55:29] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, first and foremost, they take care of their bodies, which is hard. Like, like things are inevitable. I was fortunate enough, you know, even just through my playing career, that I didn't run into too many issues and I probably didn't do a great job at taking care of my body. But taking care of your body first and foremost is important. You know, you gotta post, right? That's important. But I think it's just like the mental toughness, one of guys understanding that this is the game we were just touching on, that produces the most failure. Like understanding that it's part of the game. You're gonna have over four days, you're gonna have three for four days. And it's about minimizing that. And I also think just going back to our original point of consistency is like, okay, if I trust, if I trust what I'm doing in my work, then you know, the performance is going to come. So like the guys that at least I have seen at any level, right, even at St. Rose, that would, would run into issues and they would become more issues were guys who were just like constantly searching for success. So you know, that turns if you, if you're having over four day and you're like going to the wall saying, man, I like I have to make a change right now, like that usually does not help unless there is a very glaring issue in your swing or like how you're moving you just for lack of a better way to put it, trust the process. And it's hard, right? Like the minor league full season is over 130 games for a lot of these kids, if not all of them. It's the most baseball that they've ever played at least that first year, right? Like regardless of how long you go in the college season and play a full summer league schedule, like you still do not get to that point because on top of all the games you're playing, you're, you have spring training. A lot of these kids go on to play winter ball or you know, they'll be at the complex training or you know, at home. So it's a, you know, it's a full time job 12 months out of the year. But it's the, the guys that you see that go in there with the same mentality, right? Like they live in the medium. You're gonna have bad days, but not turning those into like at least mentally turning those into a week or two stretch, right? Like if you don't believe that you have a chance when you're up to hit, then you don't have a chance. So yeah, it's just, it's being consistent with your work, being efficient with it and, you know, understanding that there is here and that's, that's part of it. [00:58:19] Speaker B: Yeah. I was certainly guilty of making wholesale changes or going, going to the wall as you. I wish I knew a quarter of what I know now or what I've been lucky enough to be around when it comes to trying to help hitters try to navigate the, the inevitable ups and downs. But say you get a guy who's in a stretch where he's struggling, right? Maybe it's a, you know, a one for 18 or, you know, he's on a road stretch and it's just in it, you know, couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat type of situation. Where do you first go to kind of back into what that guy needs to do to try to get back on track? Is there any data point, is there any information that you first go to so you can kind of unpack? All right, this is how we're going to get this guy back on track. [00:59:11] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. There's so many layers of it. I think initially it starts with, all right, like, are you swinging at good pitches? Like, what's your approach? Are you executing that approach? If that's a yes, then it'll be like, okay, I'm executing approach. You're swinging at the right pitches and you're not having success. And it's over a long enough period of time where it's like, okay, this isn't just a bad stretch. Then you go into all right, like, 90 of hitting is being on time, 99 of hitting is being on time. Like, are you on time? Right. And that, that's talking to them about it. Like, that is looking at video, that's looking at different metrics. We might have all of that, right? And then it's like, okay, so you're kind of moving down the ladder. It's like, all right, let's say he's executing his approach and he's on time. And then you're saying, okay, like, let's look at your tendencies when you're going well. Kind of like what we touched on earlier. Let's look at your tendencies and like your path and your swing when you're going well and you know how it's going now. And. And again, like, for the most part, always, it's. It's rarely a full on mechanical adjustment. It can be right. That's not to say that it can't be right. Guys still make adjustments at the major league level and in professional baseball, a lot of the Time. It's one of those first two steps, but then you get there and you're like, okay, well, we've either dominated before, right? And we know how to structure our work to kind of get you back into that spot and we can track it, or you really haven't. Right? And it's been a long stretch, and there's never really been a time, at least to our knowledge, of, like, dominance at the professional level. And it's like, okay, well, then those are the cases where it's like, all right, well, let's look at how you move. Let's find, you know, characteristics in your swing that maybe we could improve on and then kind of go from there. So it's always initially, like, I try to think about mechanics last because especially during a season, like, it's so hard to make adjustments during a season. The off season is great for that, and everyone can work on things. So back to, like, the metrics. It's great to track during the off season, a lot of this. But in season, like we said, like, yes, it's player development, and, yes, we're training them to be big leaguers. So at the end of the day, their, you know, production in high A isn't, you know, necessarily the most important thing if they're getting better. But at a certain point, right, you have to produce in order to continue to. To grow as a player and continue to move up the levels. So, you know, you try to find ways to keep it as simple as possible in season to get them to perform at 7. So I kind of went all over the place there, but I hope that touched on it. [01:02:07] Speaker A: No, I think you nailed it, but I think that you're. What you're driving at is what. I also think I'm being negative on amateur baseball tonight. I don't mean to be, but, like, what you're driving at is what a lot of people, when they're struggling, the first thing they want to go to is the wholesale mechanical adjustment of, like, my hands are up here or my leg kicks too high or I'm not getting my backside through or whatever it is to where we want to make those wholesale adjustments and create a new swing versus let's talk about what's going on in your approach. Let's talk about are you on time, like, to your point that. That that's. Generally, if you get through those first two things and we're still really struggling, you haven't figured out, like, yeah, we might have to make some minor tweaks here and there to get you back on track. But if we're not on time for anything like that, we just kind of fixed most of our problems here. Like, let's be on time and get it off. And I think too many times we go to. I say we, but in general at lower levels, I feel like when we're not having success right away, it immediately jumps too. Well, you know, your hands are in a bad spot or your trigger is not right and we need your front arm bars. Like all these things that may or may not matter when the bigger issue at hand is what is your approach and are you on time? Like, what are we doing with those things first before we get to having. Because yes, it's way too hard to make mechanical adjustments in game and at the college level, or, excuse me, like wholesale swing changes in the middle of the season. And at the college level, if you have. Andy and I talked about this today. If we're making wholesale mechanical changes in the middle of the season, like, you're not playing, you. You won't be in the lineup because your swing isn't ready for it. And like, that's what the off season is for. That's what the falls for. That's what all that stuff's for. But like, it can't always be for the, for the youth coaches and parents out there. Like, it can't always be. The, the mechanics of the swing are. Are what we need to immediately fix because we're not having success there. There's more to it. And I think that this is where we could splinter off into a lot of other factions of this. But I think this is where you get into some issues when you have straight up hitting coaches and things like that, and they have a place in this game and some of them are very good. But like, there's more to it than just the swing. There's a lot more nuance to what's going on when you're actually playing this game than just like, oh, well, let's make a mechanical adjustment here and see if that works. Like, you know, you can't do that in a 90 minute session or 60 minute session or 30 minute session. And then think you're gonna go out on Tuesday and be able to replicate that and be really good. That's just, that's not. It's not really physically possible to do while everyone's yelling at you to, you know, put your hands up here and don't borrow your arm and be on time. And there's 8 billion things going on. Like, it's hard enough to hit like, let's, let's simplify this a little bit more. I mean, sorry, I'm being negative, Andrew. [01:05:30] Speaker B: No, but, but it, but it's something, you know, for the high school players and the parents who are out there, like rewind and listen to how Joe walked through that process. Because I think that it's, it's really how, it's how most college coaches are going to look at it. Right. And I think it's a great way for young players to, to self criticize. Right. Like, first things first, are we swinging at good pitches or are we not swinging at good pitches? Like, that could be part of it too. If we're taking a bunch of early count stuff that we can hit and you're putting yourself in, you know, you're giving the pitcher that count leverage. Well, then it gets, you know, just, you know, you look at the, the breakdown of batting averages based on counts, it gets really hard to hit in one, two counts and it doesn't really matter what level you're at. So if you start there, I think you can fix a lot of issues before you have to worry about the mechanical stuff. And to your point, Joe, like, there's times where, yeah, you always want to be trying to fine tune, but at the end of the day, if you can't get your swing decisions right, when you can't get on time, you can make all the mechanical adjustments you want in the world and it's probably not going to move the needle all that much. And I quick little, little side note, when I moved from Vassar to William and Mary, I moved mid year, so I went down there in January. So I'm walking into a team that had just come off a regional with a bunch of guys who are going to end up, you know, several guys who are going to be pro guys. And one of the hardest things for me to do as a young coach who wanted to prove that I had an idea what I was doing was to sit there and not try to make mechanical adjustments to guys that had already had success despite the fact that I may have watched them hit and go, I don't know if that's going to work. Well, it did work. You know, he had 13 pumps and hit.340 last year and led the conference in doubles. Maybe there's more to this. And that was like an epiphany moment for me and somebody who had played Division 1 and had coached college baseball for six years at that time to go, okay, sometimes the best thing you can do is just sit back and watch get to know a hitter and they get to figure out what their, what actually makes them tick, what are the mechanisms that get them on time, what makes them unique. And not really go to the mechanical piece first. I just think it's, I think that's a huge takeaway from this whole conversation that you know, when you're trying to make these adjustments, don't start with what's my back elbow doing? Let's start with the actual end game stuff around decisions that you're making. I can't emphasize how important what you said is for young hitters, but I [01:08:22] Speaker A: think it's also, it's, it's the maturation when you get older where I think that you and Joe you not to not because you're on this podcast. You were one of the better ones that I ever had that played for me that would do this. Like you always ask questions about things, whether it was your approach or what I saw in your swing or how you felt things were going where you had a high level understanding of your swing, which then like, that's what generally is going to get you to be better from a hitter at whatever level you're at. And when things weren't going right, it would be like, hey, I want, like, I feel like I'm losing my front side on everything. Can you throw me? I just want middle away, just leave it out over the outer third. I want to force myself to really keep my front shoulder in and drive that ball out over the second basement's head. And you would ask questions of these things and I think that that's, you can't be afraid as a, as a young player or, or a college player or whatever to ask questions about what's going on. You might not necessarily have the high level understanding of your swing that you think you do and that's what your coaches are for because you might ask a question that in their mind, it's like, well, you can't really handle doing that yet. But we can break it down a little bit further. But I think it's worth asking those questions when you, as you start to like get a little bit more nuanced and advanced in, in your career because you can discern more information and figure more things out in those questions instead of it just being like, why am I top spinning balls to the first to the right side of the field as a left handed hitter? Like, well, that's a lot to unpack there. There's a lot of things that can go on as to why you're just top spinning balls over here. Instead of it being like, hey, I feel like, you know, when I'm balls in, I feel like I'm losing my front hip. It's flying to the first base box, and I'm just super long through the zone. Sometimes I get jam, sometimes I catch a barrel. But I feel like I'm not squaring anything up. Like, okay, that's a. More like now in my mind, when you ask me that question, I'm like, okay, you have an understanding of what you're feeling and what's on. Going. Going on. Let's. Let's talk about how, yes, I agree with you, and how we can go about fixing that instead of, like, I don't know what I'm doing. Okay, that's. That's a lot there, you know, so, like, ask those questions. But I think as you, you know, especially for hitters, as you start to, you know, decide whether or not you're going to play in college, you're getting recruited, you're going to go to college, like, you need to legitimately have an understanding of how your swing set sets up and how it works, and it's going to change. There's going to be different iterations of it. And like, you're 100% right that it's a snowflake, but, like, you need to have an understanding of how it works so that when things aren't going well, a, you can try to fix it yourself, but you can have conversations surrounding what's going wrong, or you might perceive it as going wrong. And 99, like, 99% of the time, I would say, when you would ask me a question about something, I'd be like, yeah, no, I don't. You might feel that, but I'm not seeing that. So let's do this to get you to feel what it is that you want to feel or like, yeah, man, that was a good swing. You just, I mean, he. 92. He was 92 down the middle, and, like, you just missed it. What are you going to do? Like, be a split second more on time next time. Like, that's. That's all we got to do. And I think that, like, those things and for me, and why. Why I thought that you'd be, you know, really good in this game and from a coaching perspective is because you weren't afraid to ask those questions and legitimately dive into those types of things and how you can go about fixing it and getting better at it where there's not a lot of guys and you can probably look back on your career and be like, die. Know what he's talking about. Where, like, there's guys that don't really won't, wouldn't, couldn't make that jump. I'm not going to say wouldn't because I don't think that's true, but couldn't make that jump to be able to really understand their swing and be able to ask those questions and try to figure those things out. And that's. That's life in this game. That's life at the college level. There's going to be guys that can really understand. There's guys that can't. But, you know, I think if you're a younger kid and you. You legitimately want to play in college and maybe play professionally, because I think that's everyone's dream. Like, you need to legitimately understand how your swing sets up while also refining your approach and doing the. And understanding what that looks like so that it. When it all meshes together, we can. You can be the best, best version of yourself every time you go out for a game. But it's, you know, I think it's trying to really like that, that. That feel piece. I think as coaches, you always say, like, yeah, he's got feel for his swing, right? Like, like. But for us, it under. Like, we understand, like, that's. This kid knows what it is that he's trying to do. He has an idea of what it. What it actually is. And like, those, Those questions that you get kind of clue you in. But don't be afraid to ask those questions to people, to be like, hey, this is what I feel. Because what you feel and what you see, what are. Be. What is being seen, I should say, might not necessarily match up, but it can still. You can get to an answer as to what's going on. I think I lost the plot a little bit there on that, but I think I drove home my point. [01:13:53] Speaker B: No, I mean, it's. It's. Hitting is. It's such a difficult thing. And breaking it down to its simplest form, I just think is a good place for everybody to go, whether you're a, you know, a minor league or trying to make it to the big leagues, or if you're a guy who's, you know, really trying to, you know, find your way and get recruited in the college landscape is, you know, let's break it down to the simple things and try to do the best we can to put ourselves in positions to be successful offensively and go from there. [01:14:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that it's just. It's it is the most difficult thing in sports to do, right? Like, I mean, I shoot. We were sending tweets back and forth today from the Sunday game with ECU and North Carolina. I mean, North Carolina is rolling out a dude who's like 92 to 94 and throwing Snapdragon sliders. And the videos from behind the play, like, it's hard to hit. And then ECU rolled out a freshman who was, what, 93 to 95? Like, it's not easy. And I think so many times we go to. We try to make wholesale adjustments on things that we don't necessarily need to make. Instead of answering the first couple things, like Joe said, like, what's your approach? Are you on time? If we can figure out if those two things are still no, then okay, let's try to dive into some other stuff. But, you know, it's just. I think we lose sight of how hard it actually is. And I do think, and I don't know, this is maybe anecdotally, but, like, I do think some guys, like, if you're going to go play in college, you're going to be pretty good at the high school level, so you're probably going to feast on some average to below average pitching. And then when you get to, you know, you're probably going to struggle a little bit the first time you face some good arms. And then that's where I feel like sometimes it becomes like, what are the changes I need to make? Instead of like, hey, man, this is the first time you saw 92. Like, it's probably going to blow you up the first time or two. But, like, what do we need to do in order to. To define success against guys like that? Because the reality is, and Joe's heard me say this thousand times, like, it doesn't get easier as you go up, right? Like, I've said it on here before, like, high school is you can go feast on pitching. Like, you get to college. Like, everyone's pretty good. So, you know, there's varying degrees, but there's. You're going to face a lot of good arms. Like, you have to be able to manage that. And if you're fortunate enough to play pro ball, like, it gets you. The talent pool is even stronger and smaller. Like, the hitting doesn't get easier. Right? Like, it. I mean, go watch Ohtani, like, that dude, the unicorn amongst unicorns. Like, he's on the bum throwing 100 and then gets in the box and hits it 500,000ft. Like he's a unicorn amongst Unicorns. So, like, you know, it's not like that dude makes it look easy when the vast majority of it, like, I mean, he's probably put in thousands of hours to be as good as he is. But, you know, we don't see all of those things. We don't see all of this stuff that we're talking about to get this, to find the success that guys find, right? Like, we don't see the hours of grinding it out in the cage and, you know, talking about our swing and our swing path and what's our vba and what, what does this look like? And I'm struggling on balls on the inner third. I'm struggling on sliders away. You know, I'm a left on left and I really struggle against breaking balls. Like, how do I get better at being able to recognize that pitch early to be able to get a good swing off on them? Like, we don't see all of that stuff. We just generally, I shouldn't say we, we do, but the vast majority of people don't see what that looks like and the amount of time and effort and energy you have to put in to get better at this stuff. And we automatically think that, like, make a couple swing adjustments and we're going to find a lot of success. Like, no, man, it's, it's harder than that. You have to put in a lot of time and effort to be able to be good enough to be able to play and to be able to produce at that at whatever level you're at. And I think that, you know, it's easy at the high school level. Easier at the high school level if you have the talent. It's a little bit more difficult at the college level and it gets harder as you go. And I just think that it's, you know, we, we default to the swing versus all the other stuff that actually does go into hitting. Like, it's not just your swing, it's, it's swing decision. It's being on time, it's your approach, it's what you're looking for, you know, and you. We could talk about this for hours. And it's situationally driven too. Like, hey, man, we're down 12 in the seventh. Like, they're probably just going to throw fastballs. Just go ahead and get a swing off here, you know what I mean? Like, versus, like, hey, it's the ninth and it's a one run ball game where, you know, we're up one. Like, then they're, it's Friday and they got their dude Closing this game, trying to close this game out to keep them in. Like, that's going to be a battle of an at bat versus a seventh inning of a. Of a boat race game where, you know, everyone's just trying to get out of there because you're chasing 13 and, you know, those at bats are different. And, you know, I like, there's so much more that goes into it than just, let's just make some swing adjustments and I'm going to find success. [01:19:27] Speaker B: Joe, we've been talking about this for a while, but I want to give you a minute to maybe give some advice to young high school hitters or as somebody who's gone through the recruiting process, who's transferred from one school to another and found a really happy home. Any advice you'd give to high school players who are kind of going through it right now? [01:19:48] Speaker C: Yeah, I think the biggest thing, at least from the recruit, if I could do it all over again, you know, just gather as much information as possible. Try to be around the guys who are on the team. You know, obviously talk to the coaches, talk to people who have had experiences at the school. Just gather as much information as possible. Understand that. Like, and, and, you know, it was all the same things that, that people told me. Like, I. My older sister ended up running track and cross country in college, so she kind of went through the recruiting process in front of me, and I saw that, you know, my parents did a good job at trying to get us exposed to as many different places as possible, but figured out, like, I didn't know what I wanted when I was 16 or 17. Like, I think looking back, it was, you know, and this is some guys, this isn't everyone. But looking back, it was all right. I, you know, I saw my peers all getting these big, you know, commitments and getting recruited at a lot of places, and that's what I wanted, right? I wanted, I wanted that. And in my head, that was more important than, like, getting committed and being committed to a place and finding that next step was more important than finding something that finding a place that, you know you're going to spend four, maybe more years at, and you're going to end up spending a lot of hours weekly with, you know, a lot of that team. We talk about it a lot just with my buddies and then some of my co workers is like, college baseball is a family, right? Like, it's probably the most like that of any level because you spend so much time together and you go through the grind of it together, which is awesome. Like, It's a privilege. But like, understand what you're putting yourself into. See as many different places as possible. Get exposed to the campus. Understand that you're also a student, not just an athlete. Like get familiar with programs, you know, all of, all of those things. Go watch a game, go watch the team play, how the coach, coaches see if you want to be a part of that and like be okay with, you know, even if it's a good situation and you know, you, you really want to go to that school and they're recruiting you, be okay with maybe not liking that as much as another place that's less desirable to other people but might be a good home to you. [01:22:18] Speaker B: That's really good advice. It seems to be a common thread from former players and, and coaches, the vast majority of which played that they seem to circle back to the people like you talk about your teammates. Before we, we started, you were talking about going, you know, being in the weddings of your former teammates and obviously the relationship that you and Keith have, like, that's the stuff that I think is hard for people to wrap their head around and quantify. And you getting to the point of is it the really truly the right fit? Is it the right type of people? Is it the right coaching staff? I, I just think that moves the needle more than anybody can really understand until you experience it. And it's something that we try to make sure that we're pretty adamant about that those coaches and the people that you end up competing with and being in that tight knit community with your college baseball team, it's kind of everlasting and those people have a huge impact on you. So I'm glad that you highlighted that because for me, Keith, I know it's really important. [01:23:25] Speaker C: Yeah. Some of my, the people I have kept in contact with the most throughout my entire life have been the guys slash coaches from my college baseball experience. So I'm going to another wedding and this year going up to Canada for, for a pitcher of ours who's getting married. And you know, those are, that's going to be the week of off I get this year and I couldn't be more excited to do it. Like, every time you see them, it's, it's awesome. You, you reminisce and like those are the, those are the best. It's the best. So find a place where you can have that because it's something that you'll have throughout your life. [01:24:08] Speaker B: Well said, sir. Well, we appreciate your time. Glass. I'm glad you set this up. I had fun hopefully the listeners were able to unpack some of the awesome stuff that you were able to talk about and use that to their development in the future here. But really appreciate your time, Joe, and obviously best of luck this spring in Knoxville, you know, kicking it around up there and we'll be keeping tabs and maybe we'll get you on here again. [01:24:38] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate you guys. [01:24:40] Speaker B: Thanks, Joe. Thanks everybody. Thank you for listening this week. If you're watching on YouTube, go ahead and hit that subscribe button and smash that like button for us. Check us out on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts as well as Spotify. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram MD Baseball. If you want to find out what me and Keith do to help families and players navigate the recruiting process, go ahead and check us out on emdbaseball.com take a few minutes to check out our new online academy. I promise you'll get some good information out of that. Thanks again for listening. Check in with you next week.