Episode 113: Interview with Hamilton Assistant Coach Nolan Driscoll

[00:00:11] Speaker A: Welcome to this week's edition of the Dugout Dish podcast. I'm Andy Kirakidis joined by my wonderful co host Keith Glasser. How we doing? [00:00:21] Speaker B: Great. How are you? [00:00:23] Speaker A: Good. Got another special guest on. I'm going to kick it over to you for the introduction here. [00:00:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Tonight we are joined by. It makes me feel old, a former player of mine who has made a career out of coaching college baseball after a pretty good career up in the north country with the Potsdam Golden. What are they? The Golden Knights. Yeah, Potsdam Golden Knights. But tonight we're joined by the assistant coach at Hamilton College, Nolan Driscoll. Nolan, thanks for coming on Bob. [00:01:01] Speaker C: Appreciate you having me on kg. Andy, listener of the pod. So it's pretty cool to. To be on it tonight. [00:01:10] Speaker B: First time, long time. [00:01:11] Speaker C: I'm glad it makes you feel old too. [00:01:16] Speaker B: Yeah, we make me. [00:01:17] Speaker A: We were cutting it up before and I mean I coached against you. It's crazy. But give us, give us a quick rundown of how you got to where you are right now. [00:01:31] Speaker C: Sure. Yeah. So as Keith mentioned, I went to Clarkson University, graduated in 2015 right out of college. I was lucky enough to get into coaching. Got the assistant job at SUNY Fredonia. Was there for one season thanks to Coach Pallison, great experience. Then I had the opportunity to go back to Clarkson to be the grad assistant. I thought it was really good to get away for a year just to a little bit of separation but also see how another program's run but was able to go back there, work with coach Kane who I know Keith and Andy, I know you guys both know Kaner pretty well. But to be able to work for the guy that you played for, I think that's a pretty unique opportunity. I'll also get my master's and then once that was all done, came down to Hamilton in 2019, was my first season. Stayed on as a member of the staff there for four years. Obviously Covid 2020 shut that down. 21 we had a shortened season and then was here in 22 when made our biggest run yet in program history. We were one strike away from the NCAA tournament. I don't really want to talk about everything that went sideways on that because it's still some nightmares. After that I went and coached at the College of St Rose Division 2 School in Albany, New York for a year with Wayne Jones, who kg, I know you know Wayne O pretty well. Great baseball guy. Not that I was looking to get out of Hamilton, but just a new experience, different level, getting into the scholarships. Just a Different style of baseball as well. And then Sienna, obviously, with Coach Rossi retiring, brand new coaching staff coming in there. I was able to hop on staff with Alex Jerzinski last year and then, you know, this job, my old job actually back in Hamilton, opened back up and it wasn't like I was trying to get out of Sienna, but I really have a pretty big love for working here at Hamilton and the opportunity to come back in a slightly bigger capacity, I would say where the recruiting side of it, I'm getting a lot more reigns from. From my boss, Tim Burns, but also, you know, being able to work a lot more with the hitters, it was an opportunity I just couldn't really pass up. So this is my first year back here at HAMILTON, so my fifth season, I guess now I've been coaching for 10 years, which I can't really make fun of you guys for being old because I guess I am too. [00:03:59] Speaker A: You're getting there. I mean, you coach for some pretty awesome guys. And like, me and Keith have a. We got a soft spot for Coach Kane. I got a chance to coach against him when I first started and just always had a ton of respect for how hard the teams played. He's just a salt of the earth baseball guy, coaches his teams really well. It was always a challenge having to go up there for a variety of reasons, but a ton of respect for Coach Kane. And yeah, he's one of my favorite guys that I've ever coached against. Just a good guy to be around. He's seen a ton on the baseball field and getting a chance to work for different guys, I'm sure that's kind of shaped you a little bit in terms of what you like to do, learn from those guys, things that you like, things that you don't like, and kind of able to take that into what you do now after having done it for a decade, which makes me feel even older. [00:04:57] Speaker C: No, 100%. I mean, there's. It's funny, a couple weekends ago, we actually picked the guy off second with a pick play that we had at SUNY Fredonia back in 16. So it was something that I remembered from there. You know, I think I've taken stuff from each spot that I've been and not that I've really wanted to bounce around. It's just kind of what's happened, you know, it's. But I mean, working at St. Rose, Wayne's one of the best pitching guys that I know. A little bit old school, which is fine, but, you know, he manages to kind of keep Producing pitchers everywhere that he goes. So, you know, picking his brain and just listening, you know, and then obviously kind of creating my own style as I go along, you know, picking things that I like, maybe things that I don't like, whatever that might be. But I think that's kind of molded me into the coach that I am and just being at different spots, you know, I mean, Fredonia is different from Saint Rose, from, different from Clarkson, different from Hamilton and Sienna. You know, they're all different. But I think that's kind of. I've been able to work with a lot of different type of people, which has been a lot of fun and broaden my horizons. [00:06:04] Speaker A: So, first question we ask everybody, and Hamilton obviously has its unique characteristics, being a very prestigious high academic institution, but walk us through kind of how you guys go about identifying guys and what the recruiting process looks like at Hamilton. [00:06:22] Speaker C: Yeah, so I'd say, you know, the, the, the first thing obviously everyone hears is Hamilton being in the NEZCAC, it's high academic, all that stuff. Obviously 100% true. Top 15 liberal arts school in the country. It's, it's a great place, you know, not just the academics, but the campus itself, all that stuff. So I really like to say I start my process for the recruitment, I would say, in early January of junior year. With that being said, we kind of use that as just an identification. You know, there's a couple winter events that we get to go to. There may be some guys that we've seen the summer previously that have shown some tools or guys that we follow. You know, we start conversations with players that, you know, we think are going to be high follow guys. But with that being said, we don't really want to go too far down the road with the recruiting side of it until the junior year, academically is done. Reason being, I don't want to bring someone to campus, have them use time, resources, whatever that might be to get to campus, and then we find out a month later, hey, this may not be a fit academically. And then I wasted your time, our time. We all get excited about the possibility of the recruitment, and then, Tom, it's just not going to work out. So with that being said, we really don't start to do, I would say a ton of scheduled visits that we schedule until about early the middle of June. I would say we start to make some offers. I would say probably early to middle of July. But that's, that's just kind of your standard timeline. There's obviously outliers later in the summer, what we have in regards to the academic side of it, like I mentioned needing to see junior year transcripts. We need to have three years worth of grades in order to give someone an accurate depiction of, hey, you may be in the range so we can keep furthering this down the road, or, hey, this probably isn't going to be a fit. We think it's probably best that you look elsewhere. I hate those conversations, to be honest with you, because I normally feel like the bad guy, but I just try and be as honest as possible as early as possible. You know, test optional has kind of thrown a bit of a wrench into the plans. Reason being, if people absolutely crush it on the SAT or act, it's easy for them to submit their scores. That's, you know, 1500, obviously. Like you're getting into a lot of places. But now that we've gone test optional, say someone doesn't absolutely knock it out of the park the first time on their sat, and they say, I'm not taking it again, that's completely fine. That's what, that's why we are test optional now. But with that being said, they're going to look through your transcript. And by they, I mean the admissions office. They're going to look through your transcript a little bit more closely. Are you taking a lot of APS Honors classes? Are you challenging yourself with a lot of rigor? You know, not all APs are the same. You know, there may be AP Physics compared to another AP that might not be as rigorous. You may go to a high school that only offers four AP classes. Did you take all four? If so, great. There may be a place that offers countless APs. Why'd you only take three of them? You know, so there's, there's trying to figure all that stuff out. You know, I think being here for five years, I've got an idea of what they're looking for. But that's also not my job. You know, I'm supposed to bring people to the table, to the admissions office to see if they're going to be a fit. So we normally figure that out early summer. You know, there's still a lot of players out there that we don't really get to see until the summer. Whether that's just events that we go to or geographic distance because we recruit nationally, internationally, to be honest. So we don't get out during the spring to California. Right. But we'll go out there during the summer. You know, we'll go to a bunch of different events across the country. So it's. We don't really want to try and rush it. With that being said, you know, we've got some guys that we're interested in, but it's just wait and see, kind of what the grade shakeout to look like for each, each person and it's. We go from there. [00:10:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the academic world, right. And obviously we were immersed in it for a while. I think it's. It gets oversimplified. Like, if I have really good grades, I can play there. And I think that that's a little bit of a misconception too. And I know we were talking about it a little bit before, but yeah, you need guys who can get in, but you also need guys who are baseball players first. And I don't know if you want to take a second and kind of talk through that, that it's, it's not just as simple as I have grades, I can go play at Hamilton for sure. [00:11:03] Speaker C: And that's what we were talking about earlier, before we started recording, was listening to the military schools that you guys had on. You know, they like to find baseball players and then see their interest level. Or do you want to possibly come to Navy? Not, you know, do they have players that show up that are fully interested in being in the Navy and playing baseball to end up being good players? Sure, that happens. But they want to find really good baseball players that may be looking to. Okay, here's what Navy has to offer. Very similar, obviously not the military side of it, but very similar in the fact that I'm looking for good baseball players that are smart, not smart students that also kind of want to play baseball somewhere. You know, I think that's the big separator and that's not always easy. I'm not going to say I have 100% hit rate on that, but I think you can, you can get a really good feel for that through just the recruiting process and just relationship building. Right. Like, I really want to get to know our players or our recruits pretty well on that side of it. You know, baseball here is not a hobby. Some people think Division 3, you know, oh, I can just go play D3. No, no, this, this isn't a hobby. This is college baseball. The biggest thing that Coach Kane instilled this in me is it's got to matter to you. You know, it's not just something that you do because you're here. Like being on the baseball team has to matter. You know, putting, putting the team above yourself, team reputation, how you act on the Field, off the field, classroom, all that stuff has to matter. And it's finding guys that it does matter. You know, I think it. I think that's the fun part of recruiting because those are the guys that normally end up being a hell of a lot of fun to coach. And you get enough of those guys on one team, you're probably going to be pretty. Pretty damn good. [00:12:58] Speaker A: Yeah, the, the background work is such a. It's such an important part of the recruiting process. And I'll. I'm gonna. I'm gonna pat you on your own back here. I think you do an awesome job of following up with guys, staying in touch with guys, keeping tabs with guys. And I think that's all a big part of the process in, in terms of getting to know the individual who's going to come into the program. I mean, it's. I wouldn't say it's black and white, but, you know, you go watch a guy play a couple times, you got a pretty good idea of like, yeah, that guy's good enough for us, right? Like, he's a guy that moves the needle for. We want to recruit them from a talent perspective, but getting to know, is that the type of individual we want there? And I think this is a common thread across all of college baseball. And I think there's some guys who do it better than others in terms of. They call resources, they check in with high school coaches, they do the background work, they try to get to know the kid, they try to get to know the family. Because at the end of the day, Hamilton, I'm assuming you guys can't just bring in 25 guys every year, right? There's a cap. And you want to do the best that you can to find the right guys, the right fit. Because if you're going to bring them into your program, you got to at least know that they're going to fit into the culture. [00:14:10] Speaker C: Right? 100. [00:14:11] Speaker A: I think that gets overlooked sometimes because we try to make everything really simple, really black and white. But I think the nuance in the recruiting process is getting to know the person. And I gotta imagine that's no different for you guys. And it's something that we have personally experienced with you as a coach is that you follow up with guys like you're. You. You're always making sure that those guys, you have a beat on what's going on with specific players. And I think it's such a big part of, of how you find a recruiting class that's going to ultimately be successful for you yeah, for sure. [00:14:43] Speaker C: And I probably glossed over that probably too quickly. But through the admissions, you know, bringing people in, we're only allowed a certain amount each year through admissions. We don't know that number each year. It varies from year to year. And it doesn't mean, hey, I can be, I can have lesser grades than the normal Hamilton student. It just means that we can support them through the admissions process. That's not a get out of jail free card. You have to still keep the grades that you've been having. You can't let things slip, you can't go get arrested. Right. There's a lot of things that have to stay on parents with everything that you've been doing and staying consistent throughout your high school career. But we can help make sure that, hey, this is one of our supported spots. We're using it on you and we're good to go. So with that being said, Hamilton's pretty tough to get into. So if you're not one of those numbers, I got to be very sure on those, let's call it seven spots or eight spots or nine, whatever that number might be. I got to be very sure because if not, our team's gonna hurt from it. Right? Because maybe we now have less arms or less reliable or whatever the case may be. I have to be 100 sure that they're going to be a fit. Not just on the academic piece and not just culture wise, but the baseball side of it, how they going to interact with their teammates. You know, all that stuff comes into play big time. And you know, I think doing the figuring out all that stuff, I guess I don't want to call it homework, but doing your homework on people is how you get a better idea if they're going to be that guy, one of those, one of those seven or eight that you want to bring in because you can't really, I don't want to say you can't miss, but you can't miss often. [00:16:32] Speaker B: No. And college coaches miss. We've talked about this ad nauseam on here, but I think you touch on something that is important in the high end academic world because not, not all schools have slots, right? Some do, some don't. You know, I worked at RPI for 10 years. We didn't have quote unquote slots, you know, so there was no real, you know, it didn't, there wasn't a limit of how many guys I could, you know, quote unquote support through admissions. But on the same hand, it was admissions decision at the end of the Day, but we weren't capped by any stretch of the imagination where we might be able to go a tad bit under the academic standpoint of rpi. Like everybody that I brought to the admissions department from a recruiting standpoint had to be able to more or less get in on their own academically at rpi. [00:17:24] Speaker C: Right. [00:17:25] Speaker B: And I think there's, you know, there's a little bit of misinformation out there surrounding some of this stuff, and I think sometimes it gets you. No one really knows school to school, like what each rule is, or conference to conference. Right. You know, so I think that you bring up something important that, like, it is something that is in Division 3 high academic baseball. It's in Division 1 high academic baseball, but it's not all high academic schools that have to do it. The other part I think too, is that some schools are kind of a blend of what I'm talking about with RPI and you with Hamilton, where, you know, you don't have slots, but you can bring the stuff to admissions, but you have to be able to get in on your own academically where there's not like a, a true, straight up, you know, we can support these guys, but they damn near. They damn sure better be able to get into to school on their own without having athletic support, you know, so it varies school to school, program to program, and what. And, and honestly, like you said, it's going to vary year to year. Right. Like there, there's times at RPI where it was a little bit more difficult some years than others, and it was just based off of what they were doing from an enrollment standpoint and admission standpoint when, when talking to them. Now that said, that's generally communicated to the head coaches. So you have an idea of what's going on. It's not, you know, you don't turn around in August and they tell you, hey, you're only getting five guys this year and you had absolutely no idea. You're. You're going to have a pretty good idea, you know. But I think when I talk about this being a veiled process a lot of the times, this is one of the things that I think is fairly veiled, especially in the high academic world, because you're not necessarily telling everybody how many slots you have and what you can do. You're generally looking for really good baseball players who have really good grades, who want to go play baseball in college. And it just so happens that you have seven slots. So now I have seven guys that I can support. And the other side of it too. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but are players that can get into, and potentially play on the team that aren't supported. [00:19:37] Speaker C: Right. [00:19:38] Speaker B: Like they can get in on their own. So you don't have to necessarily, you know, vernacular of, of college baseball, burn a slot on somebody because that allows you, like that person can get it on their own. So I don't necessarily have to worry about them. I can get, we can get another guy. You know, it's kind of like the scholarship playing with money at the Division 1 or Division 2 level. [00:20:01] Speaker C: Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. It's sometimes it's a risky game. It's not exactly a gamble you want to take. And that's a lot of the times it's not up. That's not our decision to make. [00:20:11] Speaker B: Nope. [00:20:12] Speaker C: You know, we, we, that's, we like to, that's a longer conversation, I would say on a case by case basis, but just to kind of hit back on what you're talking about, the year to year change. I mean, from the time I left Hamilton the first time around and now that I'm back, I think our average SAT score is up 60 points. Reasoning behind that test optional. So this freshman class that's on campus right now, not athletes, just the entire freshman class. I think the average SAT score was around 1470, 1480, but only 52% of the students actually submitted testing. So that kind of goes back to my point of if you crush it on the SAT or act. Yeah, for sure. Submit those grades. But someone goes, all right, I got a 1315, my first go around. My transcript's awesome. I'm just going to go. Test optional. You know where that's changed drastically from before, where we, you know, our, our SAT and ACT average score was lower just because everyone had to submit it. So, you know, those changes year to year, you know, I, we try, I don't want to say we try and predict them. We just try and look and see where it's going. But, you know, it's, we learn something new every time. [00:21:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's, you know, like the interesting thing when I was at RPI and you know, I'm assuming they still do this. I don't know if they are, so people can fact check me. But we would do likely letters. So I would bring, you know, academic stuff to admissions. They would look at it and be like, yeah, as long as you continue on your path academically, you're likely to be admitted. It's not necessarily guaranteeing you the admission. Right. But it's, it was something that, like, instead of us having slots, we were able to do that, say, hey, as long as you continue to do very well academically, you're going to be fine when you officially apply to this school. You know, it wasn't a license for you to be like, well, okay, now I'm going to drop physics and calc and not take any AP classes and take underwater basket weaving and golf my senior year. Right. Like, you still had to go take a challenging academic schedule. You still to do really well on the SAT and the act, you know, so it was. That was. That's probably the biggest difference between what we would do and what you're talking about with slots. And, you know, some schools do do likely letters, some schools have slots, some schools don't do either of them, you know, so it all depends. And I think the one thing we haven't necessarily gotten into this from the podcast, so I was glad you brought it up, but I think it's something that, you know, people who are listening, who are looking to go through the high academic world, it's going to vary school to school and program to program. It's not a hard and fast rule in, you know, in all of Division 3, they do this like. No, man, it's. It depends what each and every individual school decides how they want to handle the recruitment process of the student athletes from an admissions standpoint and what they're doing here. [00:23:10] Speaker C: Yep, nailed it. [00:23:12] Speaker A: You hit a couple other things. And Keith, we. We actually talked about this the other day, but it's not just a transcript. It's not just the test scores you're factoring in. What percentage of aps have you taken that are offered? Right. Because the school. If you're crushing it at a. At your high school and you're doing a great job, and they only offer four aps to your point, and you took all four aps, you can't get to eight or nine that some of the other applicants are going to have. And that's something that gets taken into consideration. Just like you might take five APS, but your school offered 25. That looks a little bit different. And it's not this straightforward formula getting into things like geographic location. At least it played a significant factor in admissions when I was at Vassar, that if you came from an underrepresented state, the barrier to entry was a little bit lower. They're not making massive swings to try to get a kid in from New Mexico. But if you recruit a kid from New Mexico, he might not have to be a 34 act with a 4.0 and 7 APS. You know, he might be able to get in with a 30 because of the representation. And then you get into the school profile and how do you stack up against the other students in your high school? How many kids from that high school apply to Hamilton or Vassar or RPI on a regular basis? And it, it's way more than how people try to simplify it. I have really good test grades and my transcripts good. There's other stuff that goes on in this decision process that is very much out of the coach's control. I know that. [00:24:50] Speaker C: Yeah, no, for sure. And I think, you know, obviously, you know, I think each school is different with the geographic side of things or with, you know, some colleges just draw really well from some high schools. It's just a fact. You know, there's. I can name, I can rattle off probably 20 right now that it's, you know, we've got Hamilton. There's a bunch of those alums that are at Hamilton right now. With that being said, you know, back to your, your AP talk is don't just take aps just to take them either. You know, taking seven AP classes and getting a C and six of them, that's not going to do you any good either, right? You still have to do well in those classes that you're taking. You know, just taking aps just to take them and then not, not succeeding in them, that's not really doing you any good on any, any side of it. You know, maybe if AP Chem isn't for you, take regular chemistry, you know, there, there's some alternatives to it. But, you know, I've had student athletes in the past that go, hey, should I take this class? This class, this class? And I go, well, how do. Are you going to do well in them? Because if you're not, you're only, you're not helping yourself out here. I think that's more of a family by family decision. I don't think it's exactly something that I, I'm not a guidance counselor. I'm not picking your classes. All I know is that the more APs and the better grades you have, it helps your case, you know. Back to what you're saying, though, we were kind of talking about with the different high schools. Obviously I'm going to be looking at schools, you know, the Islamic in New England and, you know, schools down the DMV that we draw pretty well from. But with that being said, I also do like to kind of go a little bit. I don't want to say out of the ordinary, but I like finding players from different areas that maybe we don't have, I guess maybe underrepresented. You know, there's a senior on our team right now who's from the middle of nowhere, Virginia. His high school had three aps, and he has straight years, straight A's, and He took all three APs, and he thought it was pretty easy. He's gotten here, he's done, he's crushed it already got his job, he's lined up, he's ready to go. His best friend is from a prep school that we do pretty well out of very different individuals, but they've been roommates, best friends for all four years. He took a million aps in high school. So, you know, there's a very big difference. But I also, I think that finding different guys and not just guys from the normal, you know, same 20 schools, obviously we're going to be looking there, but I think finding a good mix, as cliche as it may sound, I think that's the fun part of going to college is being around people that may not be like yourself. Being on the same team as people that aren't like yourself, and then being on the same team as them and working towards a goal. I know it sounds cliche just coming out of my mouth, but I mean, it's true. And I think it makes a little bit more special when you get to know people in that way that you would never have gotten a chance to know before. So I think that's something that I do. I don't want to say. [00:27:53] Speaker A: I just. [00:27:53] Speaker C: I just try and go to the middle of nowhere and recruit people. But, you know, I still think that there's a lot of added value to that for everybody on the team. Not just to make my life easier with admissions. [00:28:05] Speaker A: Yeah, the. [00:28:05] Speaker B: I think the other part, too is that you. I've had this conversation recently that you have to go to different places to find players, too. And as obvious as that sounds when you're talking about recruiting high academic baseball players, the vast majority of them are going to land in the Northeast, New England, Mid Atlantic region. It's just the way of the world between the nescac, the Ivy League, the Patriot League, the Liberty League, you know, they're the. The. What is that? The Centennial? Is that with Hopkins and Haverford and Swarthmore and all them, you know, like, they just. The vast majority of. Of those schools are in the New England Northeast, Mid Atlantic region. The, the flip side to that is there's only so many players in the New England, Northeast, Mid Atlantic region that can A, get into those schools and B, you know, afford them. So you do. You know, I always felt weird saying this even, you know, I coached RPI for 10 years and I still feel weird saying it. But you had to recruit nationally. It's just, it's, it's what you have to do. And I think you're, you're dead right. Like, you go look at rosters across all of those, all of those schools, you're seeing guys from all over the place. It's not just the traditional, you know, you could look up and, you know, I'll use Marist, for example, because it's where Andy and I went. The vast majority of guys that went to Marist were from New York and New England. Like, you're going to have some one offs here and there, but the vast majority of those guys are from New York, Mid Atlantic, you know, New England region. Whereas you go look at a. Hamilton's roster, you go look at RPI's roster, you go look at Vassar's roster when Andy was there. Like, you're getting guys from California, from Texas, from Florida, from Virginia, from the middle. Like, you, yes, you're getting guys from the state of New York and New England, but you're, you're getting a lot more guys from, you know, the Midwest, the West Coast. You know, when I left, we had guys from Washington, we had guys from California, from Texas, from Florida. That's not by accident. It's, there's only so many of them. So you have to, you do have to go find guys in different places. And the other part is, you know, quite frankly, you end up in kind of a niche market from an academic standpoint, you, you find yourself all recruiting the same player and eventually you kind of get sick and tired of talking about Joe Smith because you and seven of your friends are recruiting them. It's like, well, if I like, there's six other guys, schools that are really good and really good programs. Like, he might not choose ours. It's like, why I'm not going to keep losing out to all these other people. I should go try to find other players in different parts of the country that I, I don't have to go head to head with all of these guys on. It's not to say it's a bad thing, but I, I, I think you, you're, you're dead right from the standpoint of a, it's, you have to do it from an academic standpoint, but it does make your team better, and it does create, you know, some of the guys that I played that. That played for me at rpi that, you know, guys from, you know, the. The Bay in California are best friends with guys out of Chicago and New York that you'd never think, you know, would really line up and be really close, but they are. And, you know, it's. It's fun to see their. Their maturation over four years of, you know, growing up and being super close with guys from different parts of the country and different walks of life and different things they've done that you'd never expect them to really, you know, get along and be super tight, but they are. So, you know, and does. It makes for better teams, it makes for better competition, it makes for everything, in my personal opinion, to be better, you know, but you hit the nail on the head that, you know, you have to go to different places to find players, you know, So I think the flip side to that is if you're listening to this as a player, like, just because you're not from, you know, upstate New York or New England, that you can go play in the Nescac, you can go play in the Liberty League, you can go play in the Ivy League or the Patriot League. They're looking for guys at high academic that have really good academics, that can play baseball at a high level. Doesn't matter where you're from. You know, take the. Take the. The challenging academic courses you can to challenge yourself, get really good grades, knock down great grades on the SAT and the act, and voila, you're going to give yourself an opportunity to at least potentially play college baseball somewhere. [00:32:26] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, just to piggyback on that, Keith, is I've got section two, their schedules on my calendars. All of Central New York, all of Rochester, they're all on our calendar to go watch high school games. But we also have an incoming freshman that on our first phone call, he asked me what conference we were in, and that was music to my ears. That's good. You know, it's. It was refreshing because he. He goes, yeah, I know. You're a really good school. What conference are you in? Don't worry about it. We'll get there. [00:33:01] Speaker A: Speaking of talking to kids, right. The evaluation piece is a part of it we were talking about earlier. Trying to get it right with the kid. Right. Make sure you get the right kid, the right family. What are some of the things that you do throughout the process to uncover whether A kid is going to be a fit for the program. And then what are some things that clue you in both on the field and off the field into a kid being a good fit for Hamilton? [00:33:28] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean I, you know, it's the usual of calling travel and high school coaches doing all that homework that, you know, stuff that you don't get to see every day. People that see them every day, just getting a feel for them, you know, obviously you guys as well, similar type of thing, you know, it as old as this make make me sound. It's nice when I watch video and someone hits a double and they don't immediately have a double celebration before they slide into second, you know. You know, that's refreshing now to see, you know, it's I, I like when a guy hits a double and he hits the second, he acts like he's done it before. You know, not to say I don't enjoy having fun but you know, I think, I think you know what I'm getting at there. But you know, I think obviously the character side of it is figuring that side out. You know, right now a lot of it's a video for baseball side of it. You know, I don't think I've ever called a guidance counselor before or professor. I think maybe just to kind of figure out academic side of things, but I don't think I've ever really gone that far in regards to the character side of it. Normally I do enough one on one either texting, phone calls, face to face interactions to get a pretty good feel for who they are as a person. You know, I guess on the baseball side right now I mentioned we're looking at video. You know, I know this topic has come up a bunch of times on the podcast. You have to forgive me for bringing it up but you know, measurables are great but you know your exit velocity on a swing and miss, you know, if you've got exit velocity of 98 but you swung a miss seven times, you know that that doesn't do a whole lot for me. I really like exit velocity after I watch someone hit because it almost is to check my eyes afterwards. You know, I'll go after, after sitting at a game or an event or whatever, a camp, whatever it might be. Now I have notes that hey, you know, I like, like their hit tool. And then I can check the numbers afterwards to kind of double check myself I guess just to make sure that I was seeing what I was seeing more often than not. It lines up, but it's the consistency and the not getting fooled part is what I'm really big on. Just because. Not to say that players don't see good pitching in high school, but you're everybody that you see in college is everyone's best pitcher. You know, you're your best player on your high school team. Yep. So is the 35 other guys on your team. You know, so it's figuring that how they're going to act if they're not number one. But they're 27. I know you guys have brought up where you're probably batting one through four in your high school team. Well, maybe now you're batting eighth. Most of the better hitters that I've coached happen to also be our best Bonners. I don't think that's an accident. I think they were batting seventh at some point in their career and they batted seventh because they could get a bunt down and that kept them in the lineup. And then they got more and more opportunities to just keep hitting and that's what got them to the point they're at now. I mean, for example, our senior catcher 3 hitter is the best runner on our team. He's not exactly a speed demon. Still dropped down a bun for a hit the other day in an obvious bunt situation. So it's finding out guys like that that have the ability to do all those different things and then continue to progress as a player. I think that just comes with watching more and more baseball and learning them as people and players, I guess other things I look for. I work with the hitters here now, so, you know, I'm big on using the whole field. I think a lot of guys in high school might get away with just being pull happy and hitting the ball hard by people. But I think in college if you can't hit the ball the other way or using the whole fields fully, I think you're going to get exposed pretty quickly just because if you can't cover one side of the plate, college pitchers are just going to split out there until you figure it out. So that takes some growing pains for some guys. But, you know, I think having the willingness to learn how to do it, I think is another story. You know, we've had some guys that have some really serious power, but we couldn't figure out how to go the other way with the baseball. Once he figured it out, he started hitting the ball out to the opposite field and then he hit him as a hitter, became a more complete hitter where his average all of a sudden jumped through the roof as well as his power. So having that type of guy. But then on the flip side of it, I know Keith, one of his favorite players of all time, a little third baseman at Clarkson. I also do. I also do like guys like that that, you know, I call my little. I'm not going to curse, but my little disturbers that just drive you nuts, that fall off pitches. Will do all the little things, right. Can play a bunch of different positions, run well, no, run the base as well. Just good baseball players that may not be flashy, may not make it look all that pretty, but they make every play and they drive the other team nuts. I love those dudes. Can't have enough of them. Obviously, we can't have too many of them. I know Keith knows exactly who I'm talking about right now. I can't have nine of them run around the field. But boy, when. When they're. When they're playing against you, you remember them, they drive you nuts. I love having those types of guys on my team. You know, it's the short little 57 third baseman that anytime you throw him a strike, he hits it. If not, if not, he makes every play at third and then we'll smile at you afterwards. [00:39:13] Speaker A: Yeah, the college game is a big jump for guys, right. And you hit on some stuff like making adjustments. And if there's a way that you can get attacked by the other team from a pigeon perspective, they're going to figure it out pretty quick. Especially in today's day and age when there's so much data available, there's so much video. Right. If you know a guy really has trouble staying out over the outer half of the plate and use in the middle of the field. Coaches aren't just going to throw you inside, you know, they're going to. You're going to see a lot of breaking balls, you're going to see the ball expanded off the plate, being able to make those type of adjustments, and you kind of hit at the gameplay stuff. And we've talked about this a good amount, but we were talking about base running earlier. It's one thing to be physically talented and skilled. It's another thing to be able to play the game really well and to be successful in college, at some point, it's going to catch up to you. If you don't play the game really well, if you don't know where you're supposed to be, if you don't, you can't go first to third without having to pick up your third base. Coach. Dirt ball reads, getting bunts down like having a feel for the speed of the game on defense. This is all stuff that you pick up in the, in the recruiting process. Hopefully you get a good enough of evaluation where you get a feel for it. But once you get to college, how you play the game dictates a ton of whether you're going to get on the field or not. And Keith, how did, remind me, how did Kevin Casey frame this? Because I think this is a really good way to put it about the ceiling and the floor. [00:40:52] Speaker B: Remind me on that your ceiling has to be closer to your floor. The closer your ceiling is to your floor, the more likely I'm messing up. This is, this is like, this is like Tommy Boy, like it's got to be your bowl. Essentially. The, the, the, the gist of the, the statement was that you, the consistency that you have is what gets you in the lineup more than the, the bouts of inconsistency. You know, the guys that are going to be able to go put together four really good at bats and you know what you're going to get out of them in those four at bats are, is far easier to put in the lineup than the guy where it's like he could go 4 for 4 with three doubles and a bowl or four punch outs. I have no idea what I'm going to get out or is it's easier to the guy like, yeah, I'm going to get four really good at bats, might not get four hits, but he's going to be on the barrel four times and he's going to put together really competitive at bats for us in this game. And you know that consistency is what really gets you into the lineup, you know, more often than not in, in college baseball. [00:42:00] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean I think I listened to that interview. It was pretty good. But the, I think some of, some of the reasons for the base running struggles that I've seen, I think some of it has to do with showcase baseball and not, I'm not dumping on showcase baseball at all because that's, I think it's an awesome way to see a lot of different players in one location at one time. With that being said though, people want to show off what they can do. There's no third base coach so ball behind you. There's no one to pick up to go see if you're going first or third. So a lot of people just either stop or just blindly run. I think a lot of that stuff gets lost. Just people don't know that what they don't know on the base running side of it, you know, a line drive over, over the shortstop's head. Man on second with one out. We still have to score on that. Yeah, you got a freeze. But are we still going to be able to score on it? Balls in the gap, you know, are we scoring from first with one out? We're going to be able to get back and tag on simple reads from second base. You know, I think a lot of that stuff just gets lost. Maybe not from a lack of want to, but just from a lack of opportunity or, you know, just not knowing. We've gone through a lot of base running struggles this year and not, not nothing that's really like killed us, but stuff where we could, if we got an extra 90, could we put more pressure on the, on the defense? So now we have a man on third with one out instead of man on second. Right. Where now we can get a pass ball, wild pitch, stack fly ground ball up the middle is a run. Just some, some little things like that that we've had to sharpen up and, you know, I think we can practice it till we're blue in the face, but until we're in real game action, you know, guys just have to be able to react and make those reads on their own. You know, by the time anyone, any of our base coaches, I'm sure you guys remember, but by the time you say back, yes, go, it's too late. The reads already got to be made. So the base running side of it, you know, that's actually a question that I do ask coaches is what are they like on the basis. I think it's easier to tone down aggression rather than to try and teach it. So finding guys that are already willing to bobble on a single and go to second and then they get thrown out by 25ft, that's like, we can teach you, we can teach you to pump the brakes on that every once in a while, but I never want to have to take that away from them. I think it's a lot more fun to coach that type of dude as well. [00:44:34] Speaker B: Yeah, the base running thing is. Is tough. Yeah. I think that there's. I think the one part of it too, probably the bigger part, if I'm being honest. It's not necessarily the, the gameplay in showcase baseball or high school baseball is at the end of the day, like we're all recruiting it and there's guys there that are like, they're, they're good enough to play, right? [00:44:59] Speaker C: Yep. [00:45:00] Speaker B: I think a good portion of it is just a not being taught that's the obvious. Right. The other side is I think that so many high school players and this is a deeper conversation. I think so many high school players are out of position in the high school game that it guys don't necessarily know how to get correct reads. You know, how many games have you showed up to where like the right fielder is playing on the line and the center fielders play is shading appa or shading pole side and the entire gap in right field is wide open. [00:45:35] Speaker C: Right. [00:45:35] Speaker B: And there's a single hit there that turns into a triple. And you know that's just, that's just normal. Right. And that, that's not the case, that that single is a single in high, in college. Hell, it might be caught. [00:45:50] Speaker C: Right? [00:45:50] Speaker B: Right. So I, I think, you know, part of it is that you're, they don't get enough quality reads from a gameplay standpoint in high school to be good at it. And the other side of it is I think that they're just people don't take into account how good you have to be at base running and how thin the margins are at the college level. Right. Like 50% of your games in college are going to be determined by one run. One or two base running blunders is just the same as making two or three errors in the field and putting more runners on. You know, so I think people, I don't, I don't want to say people. I think kids, you know, and players for the most part don't take it seriously because they don't see it as a part of the game. They just see it as something that they have to do in order to potentially score a run and not something that you need to actually be good at in order to score runs so that we can score more runs to beat the team by more runs. You know, the whole point of winning a game is to score more runs than the other team for those people out there that don't know how to win. But that's generally how you go about doing it. You score more runs than the other team and the more, the more pressure you can put on, the more extra bases you can. You know, we used to, used to keep free 90s at our at RPI and I stole it from Columbia with Coach Baretti and Tish and Supes where, you know, you're tracking walks hit by pitches, airs pass ball, wild pitch, stolen bases, box, anything that can get you a free 90ft. And you know, generally speaking when you know, and I would track ours, I would track all of our opponents I would track our league. You know, generally speaking, you get to the end of the year, the teams that give up the least amount of free 90s over the course of a nine inning game are usually the top four teams in the conference tournament. And the teams that are, are doing the best because they're limiting the amount of times that you're, you're allowing your opponents to get into scoring position and do those things. But conversely, on offense, you want to be able to force those things. But back to my original point, I just don't think that, I don't think players take it seriously. I don't think it's coached the correct way. But I also don't know at the high school level that you're getting the proper reads off of some of that stuff, right? Like, we all coach third base, you know, off the bat. Like, yeah, that's down. And guys like, they'll freeze. They don't know. They, they take a step back and it's like, yo, we do this every day, you know, But I like you, you have to put a heavy emphasis on it in practice and do those things to get them to realize that this is super important. Because it's not. No one's putting base running videos on the Internet, right? Like, no one's like, hey, look at me run first to third on the, on my Twitter feed. Like, no one's doing that. People barely put defense on there, which, by the way, like, you have to play defense to play in college. My, my soapbox here, but like, everyone just wants to put their swings up there and that's all well and great, but in order to actually get recruited and play in college, you have to be able to do all of these things. And I think it's something that people, we, we let go by the wayside because it takes a lot of time and it's, it's a little bit more difficult to teach. Sorry. [00:49:05] Speaker A: It's the least, it's the least sexy part of baseball. On the offensive side of things. Yeah, everybody wants to hit doubles and like, I get it, doubles are awesome. Like all four doubles. More doubles the better. But to your point, Keith, there's two sides of the coin here. There's the defensive side and the, the prevention of the free bases, but then there's the offensive side of it, which is creating those free bases. And we did the same thing at William and Mary Murph. Murph had data that predated me significantly. But if we won the free base battle, which is more free bases than the other Team, we won almost 80% of the games we played. And it's not just the prevention side. It's a dirt ball read, first to third on a single. That's a free 90. That's an extra base that we took. That puts pressure, stretching a single into a double. Yeah, it's a little bit arbitrary, but that guy who gets out of the box on the ball, that gets down the left field line, that's usually a single, who takes that really good turn, takes a good path down the first baseline and he ends up at second base, like, that's a free 90 for us. And to your point, the margins are super thin. And if you get two more guys in scoring position because somebody had a really good dirt ball read or somebody was hard out of the box on what should have been a single, that moves the needle in a game, which moves the needle in a conference weekend, which moves the needle in the grand scheme of things when you're talking about getting into a conference tournament or, you know, whatever it might be. And it's such a hard thing to evaluate because oftentimes you don't get to see a kid do it enough. [00:50:51] Speaker B: Right. [00:50:52] Speaker A: But when they get to college, it's not that you don't have time to teach that stuff because I don't think there's a single program out there that's worth their salt that doesn't put an emphasis on doing that kind of stuff and try to give their team a space in practice to fail. Right. We, we never put the brakes on anybody in practice. We wanted them to make a base running mistake so we could coach it up. Right? Right. And I don't know if you get that environment in today's youth world. Right. Because even these travel teams, these showcases and stuff, and it's, it's not a knock on the team, it's not a knock on the coaches. But I do think that the environment that these kids are forced to play in, they're playing for less. Not all of those games matter. Right. The, the fourth game on a Sunday in your consolation bracket, like, yeah, you're playing to win, but you're not really playing to win anything. Right. Every single college game has consequences. Right. In the standings and, you know, the long term success of the program and everything. So I think part of it is you don't play in those moments where you're really trying to press the issue. But I also don't think it's encouraged. I think sometimes that can create an environment where the kids are scared to fail. And I think that's the worst thing that you can have as a young baseball player is be worried about making a mistake, right. If I was coaching a travel team or a high school team right now, yes, you want to coach, you want to win, I get it. But I want those kids to be able to play free. And if a kid tries to take a single into a double and gets thrown out of second base because outfielder made a good play, congratulate that kid because you want him to continue to do that. Because when he gets to college, that's going to matter for the program he's in and it's going to matter for his ability to get on the field because you're able to do things on the basis that actually contribute to the win column. And I think it gets overlooked. I wish it didn't. I hope that it can change a little bit. But it was something that we dealt with even at William and Mary. You know, you're talking about guys who were going to go on to play professional baseball who we had to teach how to take leads, right. And it's a wild thing to think about, but it's just because they may have come from a travel program that that wasn't emphasized, right. And we had some guys who would come to college and they're squared away from the get go because they came up through a system that really emphasized that. But it's definitely one of those pieces that on the outside looking in, if you're not a baseball coach, if you're not somebody who's been in the college game, you just assume the kids walk on campus and they've got that stuff all figured out. And it's just really not the truth. There's a lot of stuff that goes into trying to get these kids in the right frame of mind to run the bases well, but it's not sexy. So it doesn't get talked about enough. Everybody wants to talk about your swing plane and your entry angle and you know, your launch angle and you know, your, the angle between your elbow and your front toe. Like whatever it is, we get into that because it's, it's all over social media. But that matters so much less than the true gameplay stuff, which is moving the baseball, which is using the whole field, which is running the bases, is throwing to the right base, like stuff like that wins your games, not, you know, how good does your swing look on Kenneth Tracks or whatever it is. [00:54:18] Speaker C: The one thing I would say that, because I'm sure there's people that are saying, well, how do I learn If, I don't know, watch a major league baseball game. Just keep watching games at night. They're on every night. Watch games and see what happens. Because there'll be clips that I'll see randomly throughout the week that I'll, I'll just clip a 30 second thing of somebody doing a base running either error or a positive and just send it out to our team. And I go, what did he do wrong? Or what did he do very well here? Or what could he have done better? Whatever the scenario may be, and then we may talk about it at practice briefly, but just watch baseball games. And I mean one of the most perfect examples was last year, Ohtani, there's a ball over his head in the gap and he, it was, it was baserunning one on one and he did it perfectly. So if he can do it and he does it correctly, he's a little bit better than you as a baseball player. And that's 99.9% of the world, maybe everybody. But if he can do it right and focuses on it, you sure as hell better do it too. So that's, that's the one thing that I tell our guys, if base running stuff, that there may be a new, something new that happens in each game or a scenario that you haven't thought of or that we haven't had yet this season. I guarantee if something new might pop up throughout the season. Watch a baseball game. You don't have to sit there and watch the whole game, but watch three, four innings and just watch what they do because they're there for a reason. [00:55:51] Speaker A: And college baseball is so accessible now. [00:55:54] Speaker C: Right. [00:55:54] Speaker A: You can, you can go flip on a, you can go flip on a game. If you got ESPN plus, you can watch a game every single day. [00:56:01] Speaker C: Yep. [00:56:02] Speaker A: And I think it's a great way to learn for high school kids. One, it gives you an idea of what is kind of going on. The type of players that play in different programs and different levels of college baseball and all that. But you can see these guys are on the bases. You can see the effort, I think is a big piece of it. Like good base runners aren't just good base runners when they want to be. They, there's effort there, there's consistency with how they attack running the bases. There's an understanding of outfielders positions. [00:56:33] Speaker C: Right. [00:56:35] Speaker A: You got a left handed pull hitter up the left field is playing more towards the gap. You got a better idea of where. What ball can you go from first to home? What ball can you go from first to third? Can A guy throw right, is the ball taking him away from his throwing arm. Like that's the kind of stuff that you get into when you get into college and you try to get kids to understand is you can make better decisions. If you have an understanding of what the chessboard looks like, then you understand, because you watched infield, outfield, or you paid attention to a scouting report that the left handed throwing right fielder has a really tough time throwing if he has to go towards the line, like whatever it is. And you get scouting reports with that kind of detail. But if you've got that ingrained in you in the front end, then you don't have to think about, all right, well, the ball got hit to the right side. Can I go first? Third? You already know that dude struggles to throw. That ball was hit in the right spot. I don't even have to pick up my third base coach. I can go and I'm going to be able to advance to third. You know, same thing out of the box, understanding angles, understanding where the ball is, understanding how the play is going to play out. It's a big part of it. And you don't. Kids might not get enough reps because they're probably not practicing enough. Right. I think that's a gap in, in our system coming up through the youth ranks is. I don't think his practice enough. I think it's a lot of skill work and I think it's a lot of games. Yeah, there's not a lot of practices where you run controlled scrimmages or you're simulating the ball going into certain parts of the field. And I think that that's how kids can learn because it's an environment where they're free to make a mistake. We've ever gone on base running, by the way. [00:58:24] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. So I, I digress. I apologize. But Keith, you'll like this was one, one of Wayne Jones's best lines and it came around to, you know, just recruiting but also being a baseball player. Was hearing about Johnny so and so, yeah, he played 110 games last summer with this travel team and this travel team and this travel team. And he goes, well, why, why has he not gotten any better? And he goes, he's not being mean, but he was being serious. Yeah, he played all these games, but he's still the same baseball player. Great. You played a lot of, a lot of games, but you still do the same stuff where it's. You did your skill work and then you just went and played, but you didn't Actually really practice playing, being a baseball player. And that's something that's actually stuck with me pretty, pretty good. That, sure, it's great if you play travel ball, but you. Or play a bunch of games, but you better still be able to practice and become a better baseball player, not just work on your exit below. And you guys won 90 games that. Of a travel league or whatever, whatever it was. [00:59:32] Speaker B: Yeah. There's a lot of truth in it. And I think it's the same thing when, you know, when you get to the college game, that's what college coaches are doing on a daily basis because you're, you know, you're playing against better players every day, not only in game, but also in practice. You know, you're getting evaluated every day. There's, you know, all the things that Andy just talked about are things that we've talked about with our players ad nauseam 100 times over, right? So then when. When you're constantly making the same mistake and you, you can't. You're not doing the things it is. You're not making that jump, the proverbial jump, that's why you're not in the lineup and that, like, it becomes a lot easier of a conversation with that stuff. And I think sometimes it's, you know, as coaches, we see this game far differently than kids do, right? Like, the three of us can sit down and watch a baseball game, we're going to see a hell of a lot different game than a kid, let alone a parent. Somebody who didn't do this for a living or doesn't do it for a living. We just see it through a different lens. And it's not. I'm not saying that to make it sound like I know everything, right? Like, I'm humble enough to know that I am not even close. But having coached this game for 16 years, I've seen a lot of things and I know a lot more about baseball. Just like an accountant knows more about accounting than I do. It's why I have an accountant. Right. It's why people have plumbers and carpenters and everything else. They know more about this than you do. Same thing. When it comes to coaching baseball, I know more just because I did it for 16 years. I think sometimes it gets lost on coaches and us. When you know, opine about this stuff, it's more so, you know, you're trying to get your kids to do these things, but at the same time, like, how much are you. Are you making it an emphasis every day? Are these the, you know, we can Complain about base running all we want, but if we're never going to work on base running, we ain't going to get any better at it, you know, But I think when it's things like that, like, and those are nuanced things, you know, guys running away from their throwing arm, you know, where are guys at? You know, when you get to second base, where are, like, where are the outfielders lined up? Where are the infielders? Are in? Like, is the infield in? Are they playing back? Are they halfway? Are they double playback? Like, where are they? Where are they in relation to you? What does all that stuff look like? And it's. There's so much that goes into it, like, it's impossible to cover every day, right? But you can certainly go coach, pitch, inner squad, and something happens, you can stop it and talk about it. And at the very least, we've. We've covered some stuff here, you know, and I just think that there's. It's hard sometimes where, you know, it's. To Wayne's point, like, you're 100% right. Like, kids played 110 games that you haven't gotten any better. Like, what are we working on? Right? Like, at some point you have to get better. And that's, that's the jump that I think kids in college, when. People who are listening, when you get to college, it's going to be difficult. You're going to feel like you're drinking water out of a fire hydrant when you get on campus. But that's where you can start making jumps to be better. Like, I've talked about it before, like, the. One of the best ways to get on the field when you're younger is to be. Is to be able to defend. One of the easiest ways to get on the field early. Another one, be a good base runner. If you have a semblance of an idea. If you can defend and you can run the bases, guess who's probably pinch running and going and playing defensively late in games? You. Because you, you know how to run the bases, so we don't have to worry about that. And two, you can defend. So now he's gonna, he can score runs and also keep runs off the board. Easiest way to get on the field. But again, it's not the sexy thing in baseball. Like, yes. Are you going to eventually have to hit and do things? Of course you are. But generally speaking, with guys, that comes with maturation and an age and just playing at that level for a little bit of time, like, generally speaking, you're going to see guys, not like you're going to hit 150 as a freshman and then 200 and then 250 and then 300 as it gets older. Obviously I'm just using round numbers for math's sake, but it's generally how you see it go. And I think sometimes what gets missed and I, you know, I love how these podcasts go in completely different directions, but I'm glad we've talked about this because these are things that I so much goes into being able to A, recruit and B, be successful in college. It's not just what your swing looks like. It's not just, you know, it's not what my metrics are like, hey, I run a six, seven, like, awesome. You can't steal first base and you can't run the bases. So, like, your speed is completely useless being a 6, 6, 67 runner because you can't run the bases. And those, those guys exist at a high clip. And it's, there's dudes out there that are 7, 2, 73 runners that are phenomenal baserunners that run, that play up. Their speed plays up from what it is because they know how to run the bases. And I think that there's so much goes into it because people just look at the metric side, we're so metrics driven now that everyone's like, well, he runs a 6, 7, he has 100 rex at velo. Like, yeah, he's got a huge swing and miss, can't steal first base, can't run the bases, and he's a marginal defender at best. Your, your metrics are awesome, but you can't actually play the game of baseball. And unfortunately, in order to, to get crack into a lineup and help a team win, you have to be able to play. And all of these things actually matter when it comes down to it. And, and I think it's hard for kids sometimes to have those conversations with coaches, like, why am I not playing? Well, man, you can't run the bases. And to them it's like this. You just told them that, you know, I don't know Godzilla exists. Like, what, what do you mean? Like, what do you mean, what do I mean? This is exactly why you haven't been in a lineup. And I think sometimes that that's, that that is tough. Like, they don't see it that way. And it's, it's tough sometimes, but those things matter. And I can't stress enough how big all of, like, how much it actually matters because when you're evaluating and putting a lineup together, those things are going into the equation of what it is, how you're constructing that lineup. And if you can't do any of those things, if you can only do one of them, you're not going to find yourself in the lineup a whole hell of a lot because you can only play one dh, can only write one of those guys in. So you got to be able to actually defend. You got to be able to run the bases, you got to be able to hit. You got to be able, like, your baseball IQ has to be high. And that's where, you know, aside from the base running and all the other stuff, like the baseball iq, I think is, is, is going down further and further. Like, and on, on a side note, like, I think part of it and in the access to college baseball, it's great, right? I'm on a, I'm on my, I'm on one tonight. The access is great, right? Like, I love it. I watch college baseball ad nauseum. It is amazing. My son loves it. It's great. But for the, this is a PSA for the announcers out there. I, I don't, I don't envy your job. I, I don't think I can do it right. Like, just because we do this podcast, I don't think I could actually do this. I would give it a throw, but leave the old college try. But every time someone gets hit by a pitch, you don't have to say, I don't think it was intentional. People actually get hit by baseballs that are thrown in game. Like, not everything is intentional. Like, you don't have to say that. Like, I just, just like it's an O2 breaking ball that gets off and clips a guy in the shoulder. Like, he didn't throw that him intentionally. So can we, can we please get that out of the vernacular when we're calling these games? Because, like, it carries over and then everyone thinks everyone's getting thrown out intentionally. Like, you're going to know, you play this game, you're around it long enough. Like you're gonna know when someone is throwing at someone intentionally. It is blatantly obvious. The O2 breaking ball that's like 62 miles an hour that clips him in the knee. An intentional. It's the fastball that's going to try to clip you somewhere. Do not head hunt. I'm not advocating for this, but unfortunately it's part of this game. So please, please stop saying that because it gives, it snowballs. Everyone thinks it's bad Sorry. I am on one tonight for everyone who's listening. [01:08:01] Speaker C: Feel better? [01:08:02] Speaker B: I do. I'm probably going to go on another one here in a little bit. What else you got for me? [01:08:07] Speaker A: Let it fly. Let it fly. You got. You got me thinking. I lost my train of thought there for a second. [01:08:20] Speaker B: Things that matter, small things. [01:08:22] Speaker A: Yeah, they do. They do. They matter a ton. And when you get to. When you get to the next level, right? For those of you who are listening to this sooner or aspiring to get there, understand that once you get there, none of the other stuff matters anymore, right? Metrics and numbers, they're going to help you get recruited for sure. But when you show up to play for Coach Driscoll, when you show up to play for, you know, whoever, right? It's going to be about what you do in between the lines relative to the team that you're competing with and the people that are in the dugout that you're competing against. And, you know, it's great that your ex AVO is 100, but to your point, Nolan, I need you. I need you to do some stuff that's going to translate into the game and it gets you there. But getting yourself on the field is going to come down to, like, real baseball stuff. And I think that's true. The farther you go up, the less metrics matter, right? Like, for people who are listening to this, when you read a scouting report of a draft guy, you don't hear them really reference 60 yard dash times. Like, if you go and you play in college, they're not taking guys who run six fours who hit 230. Like, they need production. They need. They need those guys to be closer to where they need to be able to play that game. And you get into the minor leagues, it's all about substance, right? That first round draft picks probably going to get a little bit more of a shot. But if you produce, you continue to move up. It's the same thing when you get to college. You get there as a freshman, your metrics and your physical abilities got you there. Your ability to play the game gets you in the lineup. Your ability to do that consistently keeps you in the lineup. And I think that gets lost sometimes because people want to hang their hat on, Well, I throw 88, but I'm not pitching. All right, well, there's probably a reason you're not. Or this guy throws 84 and you throw him every single Saturday. Well, it's because he does the things that we value. He manages the running game, he throws a bunch of Strikes super high level competitor. And I think that's important for people to understand that you, you, at some point production is going to really matter. And a lot of that comes down to the details and the finer points of the game, not the simple stuff to try to explain away. [01:10:58] Speaker B: I wanted to make sure that we didn't have too much of a lag there. The, the silence. People think the podcast ends for one second. No, I, I think you're right. Like, it's one of the hardest things I think in this game is that there are, there's so many things that you have to actually cover and go over in order to be good. And it's not just the hitting, the defense, the base running, the pitching, right? Like, it's, that stuff is. The service level stuff is, is relatively easy for all of us to be able to identify and know, right? Like, we've all done this. I did it for 16 years. Andy, you did it for 11 or 12. Nolan, you're creeping up on, on our territory now because we're getting old and so are you. But it's relatively easy when you show up to games like, you know who the good players are, right? Like, you can watch a guy who's going to go play at Maryland and be like, yeah, I get it. Like, that's, that's a no brainer. The hard part, I think comes when you, when, if you're listening to this and you're going to college. The hard part is, is how do you separate yourself when you get to that level, right? Because everybody, Nolan, you said it earlier, everyone was the best player on their high school team, right? You have, you, you went from, you know, 8% of College of high school seniors are going to go play in college. You know, I did some math the other day and we'll get into that. A different podcast. But you know, you're talking about, give or take at the Division 1, 2 or 3 level, about 20,000 position players that are playing Division 1, 2 and 3 baseball. So in order for you to get a lineup, like, what are you doing differently? And it's not just the hit tool, it's not just the defense tool, it's not just the baserunning or pitching tool. Because now it gets to, you know, hey man, everybody is going to be 85 to 87, bare minimum, 86, 88, 87, 89 with a breaking ball with a change up with a splitty. What are you doing in order to find success there, right? Are we like, can you, like, what are you, how many strikes are you throwing? Are you getting swings and misses on the fastball? Are you getting weak contact? Are you getting swings and misses with breaking balls and off speed stuff? Are you in and out of the zone with it as a hitter? Can you handle it? Right? Like, you know, not for nothing, but, you know, hitting 82 mile an hour straight fastballs in high school ain't going to get it done in the, at the college level. Like, you're going to see dudes who, who are firm and are throwing straight nitro. How do you, how can you get barrels to baseballs? There you're going to see guys that are throwing sliders that you've never seen before and you might not see it in the box the first time. You're like, I swung, I don't know where I went. Like, how do you find success there? You know, in the defensive side and the base running side? I think it gets so, it gets so intricate and in depth because baseball is so situationally driven. Where, you know, where, like where our ball. Where, when this, you know, people always tell you, where am I going with this ball when it's hit with. To me, like, yeah, you have to think about it. But what's the situation? You know, are we up by one? Are we up by six? Right? Like, you're up by six in the ninth. Like, yo, we're just taking outs here. That's all we're doing. You're up by one. Like, we want to keep the double play in order so that we can throw one pitch and hopefully get two outs. Like all of that stuff, it changes so drastically and at the drop of a hat in this game. And it's, it seems like there's not a lot going on sometimes. But this is the one thing I miss about baseball, about coaching, is like that chess game while you're playing and what moves you have to make and who's hot in the bullpen and like, what's our matchup look like? Who's coming up the lineup? What are, you know, okay, we're in the seventh. They have, you know, 1, 2, 3 coming up. Like, we might go to one of our better arms early to try to get those three guys out in a tight game versus going to, you know, a third arm out of the pen because he might not, might not be the best matchup at the top end of their lineup. Do we put this guy on? Do we not all of those things, you know, And I think that there's so much that goes into it that it's, it's hard for Younger kids to kind of understand. But those kids, known to your point, that are going to watch baseball and legitimately, these students of the game, those kids are the ones that usually start making jumps very early on in their career to be able to find themselves in the lineup, because they're figuring out how this game is played and what they need to do in order to be successful. We've all coached, and we've all coached guys where you're like, this dude's in the right spot every time. It's not by accident. Like, you don't end up in the right spot. What seems like every single time, because you, like, you're just lucky. You have an idea of what's going on. You're reading swings, right? Like, know, hey, read the swing. You have outfielders moving Oppo and in on O2 counts. Like, how many times do I, like, have you stood in the dugout? You're like, oppo, can we slide Oppo and in here, please? And then we don't. And a ball dumps in like, yo, what are we doing? It's. It's little things like that that, you know, I think are hard for a lot of younger kids to understand because you don't play at that level right in high school. And then you get there, and it's like, oh, my goodness, I'm drinking water out of fire hydrant for the second time. I'll use that analogy because there's just so much that has to happen, right? Like, and I think it's. It's different from a lot of sports where you don't have to worry about, you know, yes, it's a team game, but you don't have to worry. Like, you know, if I miss a block, it's on tape. Like, yeah, the quarterback got sacked because I got beat. Like, you know, we don't necessarily. You don't know until the end of the game that the error that the ball I threw away in the third ended up being the run that scored what ended up being the winning run, Right? Like, we don't know that then. So I think it's one of those things, like, it's hard to kind of wrap your mind around from a. What's the word I'm looking for? It's hard to wrap your mind around from a. Starts with a C. Um. God, this is terrible. Anyways, what's that? [01:17:06] Speaker A: That's not a C, but spectator. [01:17:08] Speaker B: No, Like, I want to say comprehensive, but it's not. It's. Never mind. You. It's hard to wrap your mind around conception, from a conception standpoint, because you're looking like you don't have all of the answers and like, it's hard to realize that what happened in the first inning or second inning might be the reason why you lost that game or why you end up losing the series. Because in the first inning we walked four hitters. And yeah, we only gave up one run, but we had to. Your pitch count is at 60 and we have to move to the bullpen in the third because you had a horrible start. And now our bullpen burned in a tight game in game one that we end up losing. And now we get to the back half of game three and there's no arms left, right? So, like, I think from a conception standpoint, it's hard to kind of wrap your mind around that type of thing. Not to say that it's all that person's fault, right? But like, you can draw lines from anything in baseball to be like, well, we were in trouble in the third game because we had a horrible start in game one. But yeah, we won that game. But we had no pitching left after game one. So game two and three, we just got boat raced and 10 run rolled. So I think that that's where, you know, it's harder for these kids. And I think, you know, Nolan, you've been. This is your second stint at Hamilton. Like, I think sometimes coaching the high academic kid, it's hard to conceptualize for them as well because it's like, it's very straightforward. Like, we have rules as to why things are, you know, two plus two equals four. Well, right. It's a little bit harder, I think, in baseball where, like, there's no hard rules to some of this stuff. And it becomes harder, I think, for sometimes for higher academic kids to. To grasp that that's a whole conversation for a different day. But no, but I mean, two things. [01:18:59] Speaker C: That I'd like to add on based off of that and the drinking water out of a fire hydrant kind of thing. I still remember getting to college and the game just the speed of the game was fast. It was just faster than I thought. I played in a good summer program. You coached me. I go, I'm ready for this. And I. We talked about Dave Kinney earlier and before we got on this, Dave Kenny hit 4, 20 for his career, I think 415. He was the first baseman. I wasn't playing over him. Hard pill to swallow. So I hung out with Dave Kinney. It was just what I'm like, whatever he's doing is Working So you know, the next thing I know I'm running 4 miles and doing 100 push ups before practice, which I didn't know that was what we were doing. But he helped me slightly get up to speed. Slightly like hey, you want to actually be good? All right, like come on, you're coming for my job. Okay, go for it. But also help me kind of get up to speed a little bit. But also all right, you play, you're going to play first base, you're going to play outfields. Let's talk through this. What's this bunk coverage where what's our priority? Just working through a lot of that stuff where you know, I'm like, oh, it's a bun. I'm waiting for the third baseman to come get it. No man, we have, this is college. Like we have different bunk coverages rather than just the third baseman and the pitcher coming in to get it. You know, that type of stuff that you didn't know what you didn't know hanging out with people that are better than you, as much of art as a pill that is to swallow makes you better. And then completely side note from that, the metric side I think Andy, what you mentioned about the higher the level of metrics kind of get a little bit less and less. We don't keep track of our pitchers Velo during the fall. We keep track of first pitch strike percentage, overall strike percentage and your time so plate and how many outs you get because nobody cares how hard ball force don't care. We keep track of velocity in games in the spring. Only reason for it is we want to make sure that guys velo don't doesn't fall off a cliff. So make sure somebody's not getting hurt. I don't keep track of your exit velocity in game because guess what if it's second and third and you hit a bloop single and you get two RBI. I could care less if you if it was 30 miles an hour off the bat if you got the job done. I don't really care. So the, the it goes back to metrics are important for a certain extent but production and getting the job done. I mean you mentioned having a guy that throws 84 and just being a bulldog. We've got one of those and it tell him he throws 84, he won't believe you. He walks around like he chose 94. But that's the moxie and the kind of swire that he's got to him which I love it and he gets people out. So the metrics get you to a certain point, but then having everything else on top of it, you know, cool. You're 87, 89, and you walk three guys, and we had to get you out of there in the first inning. Or you may 85 to 86. I don't really care what you are, but you went three up, three down. Let's. Let's go. Hit right. And got us off the field quickly. So I think that's something that it's just something to be mindful of, but not to get completely engulfed in just the numbers. And I guess to harp on it one more time, Just be a baseball player and let the numbers shake out, how they shake out. And for exit velocity, I like to track it for guys in the fall and then once they hit the weights for three months, what's it look like after that? Guarantee it went up. And I guarantee that guy's even more amped up to go back to the gym the next day because he saw the progress that he made simply because that velocity number went up. However many ticks it did. And he goes, yeah, man, this. This stuff works. At the end of the day, I really don't care how hard you hit it. If you hit it harder, sure, you might get more hits, but production place. So sorry, I'll. I don't want to go too. Too far down the rabbit hole on that one. But those. Those two things are. They fire me up. [01:23:06] Speaker A: Yeah. The metrics got to add up to the performance. And Keith talks. Keith talked about this a bunch. Like, you got to be able to take your best swing into the game. Right. And that's really what it comes down to. Last question for you. I'd like to ask you to impart some wisdom to parents and players who are currently in this process or have aspirations of playing in college. Any advice that you would give them as they go through this? [01:23:37] Speaker C: Yeah. The first thing that I would like to say specific to each person is your college search is yours. It's not your friends. It's not your brothers. It's not what your best friend's doing. It's not what your parents did when they were. If they were athletes. It's not what your cousins. Everyone's going to be on a different timeline, so you do your thing. You know, I've seen instances of people wanting to commit as early as possible. They just want it over with. They just want to know. Scene instance where people just, while being recruited, see how many schools can recruit them. They like it. You know, there's a wide range of I guess things that can happen for each player doesn't mean you have to have all the answers. You know, I think the biggest thing is where do I stand as a baseball player? Where do I stand as a student? Where am I trying to go to school? Close to home, far from home, somewhere in between. Get a radius and find out schools that fit what you're looking to study. If you have no idea what you want to study, figure out places. You know, Hamilton, for example, we have an open curriculum, I think, for someone that doesn't know what they want to study. And you know, when I went to college, I went to Clarkson, which was an engineering and business school. I changed my major three times. I had no idea. But I think at a place like Hamilton, we have an open curriculum where just start taking classes of stuff that you're interested in and you can figure out what you're passionate about studying the most. But find a place like that, right? Where, hey, I'm really into government, but I also, I'm really good at bio. What do I do now? You know, find a place where you can take some bio classes and golf classes and you know, your roommate took a psych class. Great. Awesome. Find us something where you can. That you're passionate about your academic piece in regards to the baseball side of it, you know, I think don't panic when your best friend's being recruited and you're not, or don't think that you're the man because you're being recruited and your best friend's not. You know, as bad as that sounds, we. Boy, I hate to beat a dead horse here, but go play baseball and play the game hard and play it the right way. And I guarantee a lot of good things are going to happen for you if you're good enough to be a college baseball player. Ask a lot of questions. I think getting in contact with coaches, you know, are you going to hear back from everyone? No. But I think asking questions where a lot of it, you don't know what you don't know. So finding that stuff out, I can still think back to my experience. I had no idea if I was going to play in college, if I could play in college, what level I would play at. I went to some camps. I was part of a pretty good summer program where Keith coached me. No idea. But eventually I was able to find a place that fit for me. I wasn't on any strict timeline. I didn't really care when I made a decision. I just wanted to find a place that was a good fit for me and I was lucky enough to do that. I had friends in the same exact class who were committed August of their. Before going into their senior year. We had friends that committed way sooner than that. All found good spots for them. But I think that knowing, I guess not knowing, but figuring out what it is that you're looking for in your college experience, knowing that that's going to change possibly and still being very happy with your decision is the biggest part of it. Good college baseball everywhere. D1, D2, D3. You know, I know everybody's dream is playing the big leagues. Mine still is. It's not going to happen, but there's really good baseball a lot of different places. Keep all of your doors open. You know, I've, I've had experiences in the past. I'm sure you guys did too, as well. Yeah, Coach, thanks. No, thanks. I'm going Division one. Okay, sounds good. That's good to know. You know, and then two months later they come calling back, you know, Keep a lot of doors open if that. If they're open for you. And the biggest thing is enjoy it. Right? Like picking a college should be fun. You know, it's. I know with the transferring and everything going on now, this, this term or slogan may be a tad outdated, but picking a college is not a four year decision, it's a 40 year decision. You know, I still think back on my years at Clarkson and love everything about freezing my ass off up north. You know, we still go back for alumni weekends and still in touch with a bunch of guys that I played for 10 years later. You know, it's because that was the decision that I made for the rest of my life where I'm really happy about it. But you know, it's, it should be a fun time to start. You're looking at colleges, you can figure out what it is that you like. You're going to go do new things and you're going to go become an adult, learn a bunch of stuff and hopefully win a lot of baseball games. So remember to try and make it fun. Don't let it stress you out. It can be stressful, but really enjoy the process of visiting campuses with your family, with your friends. You know, if you get to go play on college campuses during the summer or the fall, enjoy it. It's a lot of fun. Right? You never know if you might play there again or maybe you do get to play there again three years later down the road or maybe the following fall. Right. So it's, I think it, it should be a Lot of fun and not a stress filled, oh, my God, what do I do, where do I go to school type of experience, because you only get to really do this once. [01:29:32] Speaker A: Well said. Well said. [01:29:36] Speaker C: I rambled a little. I'm sorry. [01:29:38] Speaker B: No. [01:29:39] Speaker A: Kind of what you hit on the end, I think is important is like trying to find the right fit, trying to find a place where you're going to be comfortable, you're going to be coached by some people that are going to make a difference for you. And I know you found that in Coach Kane. But those four years are. There are four years that are really influential, right? And you meet a ton of people and you figure out who you are. Like, you're away from home. For most guys, it's the first time they've ever really been away from home. So being able to find a place where you can not only compete on the baseball field, but surround yourself with some people that can make a difference for you. I mean, it's not a coincidence that, you know, me and Keith are doing this together and that we still talk to guys that we. We play with on a daily basis. And it's because of that bond you make going through everything that you go through as a college athlete. And it's. It's something that if you. If it's important to you, you'll go through the process and you'll. You'll. You'll put your best foot forward and try to find a place that's the right fit. But playing college baseball is. I mean, it's one of the coolest things that I think you can do being a college athlete. You know, you got a lot on your plate. There's a lot of responsibility to do it and do it at a high level, but, you know, those experiences you have there, you. You can't really. It's hard to quantify how impactful those four years can be on a baseball field. And, you know, it's why we do what we do. And, you know, I think you hit on some great points there. All right, Coach Glass, you got anything you want to add? [01:31:08] Speaker B: Nope. [01:31:10] Speaker A: Nolan, thank you. Nolan, thank you. Thank you, sir. [01:31:14] Speaker C: Thank you. [01:31:15] Speaker A: Appreciate you coming on. [01:31:16] Speaker C: This was. It was fun. A lot of fun. I enjoyed Keith going on a little rant, too. I haven't heard one of those in a while. [01:31:22] Speaker A: Oh, they're good. You got to let him run. When he's going, you gotta let him run. [01:31:26] Speaker C: I. I got one of those on a mountain one time, so that was pretty good. [01:31:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm sure you did well. Good luck this weekend against Williams. Am I correct? [01:31:37] Speaker C: Amherst. [01:31:38] Speaker A: Amherst this weekend. That's the luck. I know it's a big one for you guys. [01:31:42] Speaker C: Appreciate it. [01:31:44] Speaker A: We'll be in touch. [01:31:45] Speaker C: Kg, we got Joe tomorrow if you're bored. [01:31:48] Speaker B: I'll be there. [01:31:50] Speaker A: All right, well, thanks for listening, everybody. Nolan, best of luck this weekend. We'll talk soon. Thanks, everybody. Thank you for listening this week. If you're watching on YouTube, go ahead and hit that subscribe button and smash that like button for us. Check us out on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcast as well as Spotify. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram MD Baseball. If you want to find out what me and Keith do to help families and players navigate the recruiting process, go ahead and check us out on emdbaseball.com take a few minutes to check out our new online academy. I promise you'll get some good information out of that. Thanks again for listening. Check in with you next week.