Ep. 172 - Rerelease of ep. 61

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:11] Speaker B: Welcome to this week's edition of Dugout Dish podcast. I'm Andy Kirakidis, joined by my wonderful co host, Keith Glasser. How you doing? Great. [00:00:19] Speaker A: How are you? [00:00:20] Speaker B: Good. We have a special guest on for this week. We're excited to have him on. He is the. Well, first and foremost, he is another graduate of the Tony Rossi school of Baseball, one of many incredibly accomplished coaches that have. That have fallen from that tree. He's currently the pitching coach at St. John's University and we're fired up to have George Brown on. George, what's going on? [00:00:45] Speaker C: Appreciate you guys having me. Thrilled to be here. And yeah, luckily I made it. Made it through that tree, hit the ground and walked away from it. But no, I owe Coach Rossi a lot for giving me my start in this business. He was an incredible mentor and, and a great dude too, on top of everything. [00:01:04] Speaker B: Yeah, he's the best and Keith knows him a lot better than I do, but just a, just an incredible human being. I think that's probably a good place to start. Take it, take a couple minutes and, and walk the listeners through how you've gotten to where you are now. You've. I know you've been in a few stops, coach for some legends and played a little pro ball on the way, so walk us through it. [00:01:26] Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah. So I, I was born in Boston but grew up in, in Syracuse, New York, and was recruited out of Syracuse by a couple of your former guests, but ended up going to St. John's and was lucky enough to play for, for Ed Blankmire and Scott Brown. And our current head coach, Mike Hampton, played four years at St. John's and you know, when you pitch on Saturday and play for a really good team, you get to win a lot of games. So I got picked by the St. Louis Cardinals, played a few years in their minor league system and as soon as that was done, I, I started my coaching career. I made a few stops. I was at Siena College with Coach Rossi for a year, Monmouth University for, for three years with, with Coach Ehalt, Stony Brook for two with Coach Sank. And yeah, this is now year seven back at my alma mater at St. John's coaching for first Coach Blakemire, now for, for Mike Hampton. [00:02:34] Speaker B: Yeah, pretty cool path. Learned from some legends there. We were talking about a little bit before. We don't need to get in it. But you, you've coached for some guys and I'm sure they passed along a lot of information which hopefully you can distill some of that as we dive into some stuff here. But first question we'd like to kick off and we'll kind of let it flow into some baseball stuff is at St. John's what are, what are some of the ways, like how do you go about identifying players and evaluating players that are potential fit for you guys? [00:03:08] Speaker C: It's awesome. Question. So I would say the, the venue always changes. It can be showcases, it can be our camps, it can be tournaments at Diamond Nation, it can be high school games, it can be just about anywhere. But, you know, kind of mentioning the guys that I was lucky enough to coach for and learn from, there's a few things for me as a, as a pitching coach specifically that I look for. I mean, I have a list that, you know, run through really quickly. It's, you know, I want competitors and winners. I want guys who have something about their fastball that's special. I want guys who have a replaceable pitch that, that when a fastball count is there and we need to throw something else, they can use it. I want guys with athleticism in the, in their delivery. I want guys who are projectable and, and look like they have more to go. And I want guys who dominate intangibles, guys who hold runners, feel their position, understand the game. And then the last one is competitors, winners. And there's a reason that one's on there twice. That's why we do that. And you know, the things that we try to do when, when we're recruiting and developing and, and looking at the players that are going to fit in our program. Does everybody check every one of those boxes? Maybe not, but if we can see a lot of them checked off and the ones that, that aren't are the ones that we can coach them up on. You know, that's kind of the way I go about it with pitchers. And you know, I know our hitting coach does the same with, with his hitters. He has some non negotiables and then some things that are a little bit more flexible [00:04:51] Speaker B: when you, when you get into the ID process. And this is something that at least I know a lot of guys have mentioned this, but network of coaches and how does that work for you in terms of guys getting on your radar and is that something you lean on in terms of identifying guys? I know you guys need to be a little bit ahead of the curve and you need to have an eye on guys as they come through. No. 26 is coming through for this summer and having a plan like how do you go about that and what does that look like? For you guys? [00:05:23] Speaker C: Yeah, undoubtedly there's going to be a difference between the collection name, collection process, identification, our evaluation and then our deep recruitment. And I think that's where you know, being able to develop a network in the sense that there's people that you trust, there's people that you can talk to and call in certain areas, or who have a similar mindset that you do when you're talking about recruiting or evaluating a player and, and being able to, to use them as a resource is, I mean, and it can be anybody, it can be former players, it can be, you know, people that you've met just through the, the, through the coaching ranks and a lot of different areas there. But you know, for us it, that identification process, it happens, definitely takes a village because if you think you're going to do something like that on your own, just through your own elbow grease and hard work and just go, go to games, like there's too many games to go to. So you have to at least have some idea from somebody where the, where the players are. And there's a lot of different venues for that. But yeah, that's generally where it starts. [00:06:37] Speaker B: As far as the, as far as the showcase stuff, you, you touched on this a little bit before we got started and I think it's an important topic because I don't think you're the only coach that really values this. But obviously the recruiting stuff has changed a little bit in recent years around like short burst outings, showcase type events, and a little bit less stress put on gameplay. And I know this is important to you because I've seen you out specifically trying to watch guys throw five, six, seven innings. But what's the volume that you'd like to see from a kid before you feel comfortable about your evaluation? And how important is it seeing in them in a true game setting versus the showcase, in your opinion? [00:07:26] Speaker C: Ooh, that's a lot of awesome answers in there, hopefully. So I, I think it's, it does start. You know, when you're talking about the identification process and, and like really starting that evaluation, what, what do we see the player as and from a pitching perspective? Like if I going out and I'm trying to recruit a guy who I plan on having start for me, it doesn't really make a lot of sense to watch him in one to three inning bursts. Like I would try to get out to see his high school, I would try to get out and watch him in extended outings and, and hopefully that puts me in a position where I can go back and see him again and say, okay, when, when things get tough, what happens when runners get on? What happens if we're talking purely on the identification for the evaluation? Like, hey, if a guy hits a number on a radar gun, if we get a, we get a Trackman file or we, we get a recommendation, like, that allows us to at least start kicking the can down the road. But for me, it's going to probably be two to four times of extended outings if, if I see that guy as a high scholarship player for us, that I really think is going to be impactful in our program. And, and the guys like that, like, yeah, like, they, they don't get three outs at a time against kids their age. They get 21. And, and it kind of starts there for us. [00:08:55] Speaker A: I think that's one of the hardest things to tell families and to get kids to kind of understand nowadays, you know, because I think, I don't think. I know. And you know, this too. The, the, the, specifically the summer ball stuff has changed from when, you know, we're all the same age, right? We're not old. But in, when we grew up playing in the early 2000s, like, you went and played meaningful games against really good competition. Like, there was no Diamond Nation, there was no baseball. Like, that stuff didn't exist when the three of us went through the recruiting process. Like, I played for the South Troy Dodgers. Like, you go play doubleheaders on the weekends, and starters were going 5, 6, 7, 8, you know, and I think that it's hard to get people to kind of understand. Like, you need to be able to show the ability to go, if five plus to legitimately be recruited and get some scholarship money in this and be able to do the intangible things that you talk about. Because it's something that when you get to college, you have to at least have some semblance of an understanding of how to hold runners, how to change looks, you know, to be able to not be a 1 to 7 to the plate because it's a track meet they get out there, right? And like, how many times have we. Like. And, and it happens, right? Like, inevitably it happens. When you recruit kids and you bring them in, it's like, okay, like, he's going to be good. He can pitch, but, like, he's a 16 right now. We're going to have to quicken that up. And it's that first inner squad where, like, your leadoff guy gets on and all of a sudden, like, stolen base, stolen base, stolen base, stolen base. And like, now they're frazzled, and it's like, no one's ever stolen, like, yeah, man, like this college baseball. And I think sometimes, like, you know, having that conversation with families and kids is tough because they, like, they haven't seen it and they don't know, and it's like. But, like, I'm telling you, it's going to happen. I'm not telling you that you need to be a 12 right now, but, like, these are things that we need to work on in order to get better, you know? And I think sometimes when, you know, we can have these conversations we have people like, you want to have had a lot of success with guys, and, you know, we've had other pitching coaches on. And like, regardless of where they're at, whether it's Division one, Division three, like, all of them say the same things. Like, yeah, you have to be able to throw strikes, and I want you to go deep. But, like, you have to hold runners, you have to field your position. You have to do a lot of other things than just throw 95 miles an hour. Like, there's a lot more that goes into this. And I think that that's something that is kind of getting lost at the lower levels. That is. I, like, I feel like Andy and I are bringing people on. They're trying to shout it from the rooftops of, like, you need to do more than just throw hard. There needs to be breaking. Like, you need to have other pitches. You need to be able to do other things. And it's not just the V piece that I think a lot of people like to get hung up on because we see it at some of the highest levels. [00:11:48] Speaker C: Cliches are cliches for a reason, right? Like, I. They might get boring or. Or challenging to hear over and over and over. But, like, it's about playing the game, and it's about trying to. To win baseball games. And. And there's a. I think, you know, this kind of gets tossed around quite a bit. But, like, when you. When you talk about the level of skill and talent that exists in the game, like, we can be the old men yelling at the cloud. I'm 37, so I think, again, I think we're all kind of in that same ballpark. Ish. Like, I can be that old guy who's all mad that the game isn't played well anymore. Well, things are taught and valued differently at a younger age, and so they. They arrive with those skills more readily. Like, I. I remember recruiting a kid, and it was. He was in the 2015 recruiting class, and he was coming to Monmouth University and He hit a 90 in a game, and I was like, oh, my God, we got a guy throwing 90 miles an hour who's not even here yet. And now that's like your ticket in the door to be recruited. For a lot of people at 16, like, the game on that level has changed and we can't ignore that. But the other side is like, as college coaches, I don't think we could complain about it either, because I have every opportunity to go recruit guys who throw 84, 86, and hold runners if I want to, or you build a roster and a staff the way that you feel like you need to in order to actually develop the group and have some guys who can do some different things. So, hey, maybe if a guy is a sprinter for a travel team and he's one to three innings and every time he gets to the third, the velo drops four miles an hour. But, man, there's some electricity for the first. For the first six outs. Maybe I'm recruiting that guy as a back end arm or a setup guy who blossoms into one. And okay, like, I'm okay with that as long as I identify what I'm doing in my process. [00:13:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's the difference where as coaches, we know that. And I think a lot of people want to kind of look at it as, well, everyone's throwing one to three, and I just like, I want to come in and have the ability to start right away. And it's like, well, there's a process when you get to college of what that is going to actually look like, how you develop, how you respond to coaching, what you actually do when you get the ball in games and things of that nature, you know, are you going to be in the weight room, all those types of things. You know, I think that because it's kind of, in some regards, like, that's what a lot of people do. It becomes like, this is what. This is the path forward. And it's like, well, there's a lot of different ways to skin a cat here. It's not just, you know, the, the 1 to 3 is. Is going to be the. The be all, end all for everybody, you know. So I think that there's the. The point that we try to drive home, though, is that there's a lot more that goes into this than just the. You're right, the game has changed. Like, I'm 37. When we were. When we were growing up, like, if dudes were 989, 91, like 90 was the number you wanted to get to when we were in high school and early in college. Like, do you like, wow, that guy throws 90, like that's firm now. It's like, all right, ho hum, everyone's throwing 90. [00:14:58] Speaker C: Like you throw, you throw the sixth on Tuesday, right? [00:15:02] Speaker A: You know, so it's, it's, it has, it has changed. And you can't ignore that, that, that part of the game. But I do think that they're like we talked about, Andy and I, a short, a peek behind the curtain here. Like we cut a short earlier on free passes, like, you know, at things that you can control. The walks, the box, the hit by pitches, the wild pitches, the pass balls, things like that. Like there's a reason they get tracked in college because there are things that you can by and large control. And you know, so like generally speaking, if you were going to be a guy who just goes in and walks and hits guys and has a 5 whip, like, you're likely not going to find yourself on the mound that often for that ball club until you figure it out. And that's just the reality of, of [00:15:47] Speaker C: what it is for sure. And if you're going to value it, you have to track it. And that's, you know, one of the things that we talk about as a program and you know, I don't know why we wouldn't hold guys that were recruiting to the same standard. It's did we throw strikes, did we catch the baseball, did we hit hitting situations? And like, if we do those three things in a game, you look up and you're like, oh man, shocker. We did that again and we actually played well. It's, it's kind of crazy how that works out. So you start to look at things and track them. And in all the years that we've struggled, it's been on the mound, it's, it always starts with free passes and giving stuff away because, you know, the, the arrogant part of the pitching coach in me is like, well most, most hitters aren't very good. And, and, and, and we have to think that way as, as pitchers because the, the game is stacked that way. It's for them to not be very good. So if we're going to give stuff away, it's not gonna, it's not gonna help our plight. So we need to be as aggressive towards making them do things as much as we can instead of giving things away to them. And you can't just say it, you have to train it, you have to track it and, and you have to talk about it. I mean, we post stuff every, after every game, after every week, highlighting the things that we've done well. And you know, our guys are playing really good baseball right now. We're really proud of the things that they're doing on the field. It's not like superhuman stuff. Like, it's just playing good ball. Like, it's not overcomplicated, Being tough and caring a lot about each other and winning baseball games. [00:17:15] Speaker A: It's a rather simple formula. But the other part that, you know, I wanted to touch on too, like, it goes back to why you have compete twice on your checklist. Like, there's a huge, you have to be a super competitive person if you want to be able to succeed at any level of college baseball. Like, or if, even if you just want to stick because you're going to compete every single day. And I, you know, I think that that's something that gets lost on people sometimes. Like, you know, how many times have you had guys come into your office being like, I just need a couple more opportunities or I need, you know, I need to be able to pitch in a game. It's like, well, you have an opportunity every day. Like we've inter squatted. You've thrown 30 innings in inner squads between the fall and the spring and you're pitching out of 10 like that like everyone else is pitching out of, you know, sub 10. Like we're going to go to those guys before you because you like, they've earned that right in practice against their teammates. And I think like, how, like you have to have those conversations. I think sometimes it's tough for kids because it's like, well, like, I just need more opportunities. Like you have that opportunity every day in bullpens, in catch play, in whatever, you know, in your touch fields, in your spins. Like, hey man, like these are all the things that we've talked about. These are like, you have to go out and compete literally every day. And it's not just when the lights are on. Like, it's got to be. And conversely, like, you can be really good, but then when the lights are on, it's not good. Like you have to be good when the lights are on. But in order to earn that opportunity, you have to compete every single day in order to earn that right to go compete against somebody else. [00:18:52] Speaker C: Undoubtedly. I mean, yeah, it goes back to, you know, what, what you value and the things that you want to bring in. And any of us say that we're infallible like, you show me the guy who's never missed on a recruit or never missed, never screwed up a pitch call or any. I make mistakes all the time, constantly. And, and fortunately, I'm lucky enough to have learned from a lot of people who have said no, that's what's going to happen. You have to learn from those mistakes and grow up. And, and even, even in the past, you know, you bring up the word compete even as a coach, like, you have that ebb and a flow of like, okay, I was a player and then I grew up and I matured. And then, you know, you become a coach and you're an immature coach and then you have to mature as a coach. And like, I think you confuse, like, it's really easy to confuse competitive and emotional and passionate and like, those aren't synonyms. Like, those are all very different things. And the more control you can have over emotion, you can be an absolute dog of a competitor and look like you're just taking a stroll in the park. Like, the emotion that you give or show in certain situations, like, yeah, a fist pump is, is, is always good at the end of the beginning, at the end of a game. But like, you see a lot of starting pitchers who walk off the mound after strike three and like, does it mean that dude doesn't want to compete and doesn't care? It's like, no, he, he's got a low heartbeat and he's probably better and in that position because of it. And like, the guys who are at the end of the games, they can handle the high energy, the high emotion situations and either match it with their own heightened emotions or, you know, they're kind of a cold blooded killer out there too. And, and, and all those things kind of make up who you are as a player. And I think one of the things I didn't talk about but like, I try to be as a coach and again, we've all, we've all figured things out at times. But like, you want to be authentic and, and like who you are as a player and as a person should, should translate. And so if you're not overly emotional, like, why force yourself to be. And if, and if you have a little fu to you and that's how you project yourself on the mound, like, that's how you have to be. Like, you can't tamp that down. You have to control it, but you can't tamp it down or pretend you're somebody else. [00:21:05] Speaker A: No, I think it takes a while for people to figure that out. Right? Like, took a while for me as a player. Took a while for me as a coach. Like, you know, I. I think when I started coaching, I. Like, I was a big yeller. I don't know if I yelled the last 10 years of my coaching career. Like, it just wasn't useful. It wasn't. It. It wasn't me. Like, I wasn't a big yeller or screamer when I played. Like, it was just kind of what I thought you were supposed to do. And I was like, this is stupid. Like, I saw this when I was a player. I thought, this is what happens. I stepped back and looked and I'm [00:21:41] Speaker C: like, I didn't like, disappointing. [00:21:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I was like, I didn't like this when I played. Why would these kids like this? [00:21:48] Speaker C: Yeah, like, man, like, it's so true. Because I. Again, anybody who doesn't acknowledge their mistakes, I've made tons of mistakes coaching guys, being overly emotional myself. I'm yelling and screaming and telling people to control their body language, and it's like, hot kettle. What are we doing? Like, there's. There's so much there that, you know, over time, you start to figure things out. And. And I appreciate the guys who have stuck with me and. And gone through the challenges of me being emotional in order to. To see maybe a little bit more Zen, a little bit more relax, and, hey, maybe it's the kids and whatnot that. That settle you down and the losses don't hurt anymore as much. But, like, you know, there's. There's a lot of perspective to be had if. If you're willing to look around and listen. But, yeah, I think maybe I. Yeah. Why. Why yell? Like, doesn't. Doesn't do anything. Although maybe at umpires, I definitely lose my temper there occasionally, unfortunately, but I [00:22:47] Speaker A: probably yelled at them more than I yelled at my players in the last five or six years of my life. But. But even then, sometimes you're just like. I mean, there were times I've tried to get, like, I tried to get thrown out of games, and they would just be like, no, not doing it. I'm like, can I get a warning? Like, give me the official NCAA warning. Just do that for me. I'll shut up over here. Gosh, sorry. We digress. [00:23:15] Speaker B: You said something that I think we should take a second because I think this is important for players and families to understand, but I think it also frames up college baseball. And you mentioned pitching staff and that in college, this is. I think this is one of the biggest differences from high school to college and it doesn't matter whether you're playing junior college or you're playing in the SEC or somewhere in between. In high school you got two or three starters and you run them out there three times a week or you know, every one of them gets one start a week and you go. And if you have to go to your bullpen, it's probably not a good thing. That's the reality of most high schools. College, you need to build a staff and you need to be able to manage that staff. And guys have different roles and you try to put them in situations to be successful. And you've got your weekend starters and your midweek guy and then you got your swing guys and the back end guys. Can you talk a little bit about how you go about that process in the, when you recruit? Because I think it's something that a lot of guys think that, well, if I throw hard or if I do one certain thing, I'm going to get recruited. But I know from talking to you that you're way more specific in how you build out a recruiting class versus just trying to go get a bunch of right handed guys who throw hard. You're looking for specific things to lengthen the quality that you have. [00:24:48] Speaker C: Yeah, no doubt. And, and, and I, I wish it was something that at this point, like I can tell you I've, I've figured out the, figured out the code. But like you, you, you go through the things that you value, kind of like we talked about and you start building things around there. And if, if I'm going to sacrifice a thing that I value, where does that piece then fit? And you know, you also have to have a group of selfless, competitive together people that, that truly understand like. And, and I, you know, I, I always, I try not to do the back when I playeds too much but like, you know, we're, we're lucky enough to have a lot of great alums of our program. And one of the jerseys on the other side over here is a guy named Scott Barnes who, who was a left handed pitcher from Massachusetts. And, and that was a guy that for me as a member of a pitching staff, he was thrown on Fridays and if I was throwing on Saturdays, I'd try to pitch better than him. Not to pitch on Friday, but to compete with him. And anybody who was on Sunday was trying to pitch better than the two of us. But Scott Barnes was my throwing partner and we had more fun in the years that we've played together than we could ever imagine. And it's not rivalry, it's competitiveness. And so in that group, you have to have somewhere between six and eight, maybe 10 guys who at some point in their career they're going to have a chance to start in your program. And then you got to have a couple sickos at the back end who just love the adrenaline rush and love the high leverage tempo situations that come with that. And, and sometimes you put a guy in a situation where you're like, okay, no, this is what he's going to be and he shows up and you're like, okay, I missed on that. Let's pivot really quick and see what he's going to do in this role. Some guys don't like coming into other people's games. Some guys stuff doesn't play that way. And as you evolve, like you understand that no matter what you do, you can plan for all these things. I think all you have to do is have a key philosophy and couple key tenants that all of your guys are going to do and from there they're going to fill into the roles that they have. And if you want another role, it's one of the things we stay in the recruiting process. Hey, you want to start as a freshman, you want to pitch on the weekends, Pitch the best. Coach Hampton writes the lineup, but it's in your handwriting, man. Like it has nothing to do with us. And for us like it. And you can look through our program and the history in the past and we've had a guy, a freshman, who has made starts on the weekend every year since I've been here, other than the four week Covid year, every single year, you want to pitch, pitch the best. And you want a role that's not the one that you already have. Pitch better. But kind of how Keith said, like you want opportunities like they're there every day for you. So if you think it's us making decisions based on the plan that we made three years ago, nah, man, it's not that simple. Like you guys go out and you make your roles. You want to pitch on Friday, Sunday, or you want to be the closer. And now there, there's some grooming that obviously helps with if you can have some depth in your group and say, hey, this, this guy, we could pitch him for one to three outs every weekend and not get much out of him during the midweek. Or we can really say, all right, he's, he's going to be a big part of this thing down the road and I'd rather he throws 45 or 50 innings and maybe towards the tail end of conference, we start to slip him in there as a, as a leverage guy. Like, okay, that, that might make a little bit more sense than throwing 12 to 18, because we could never find the perfect spot for it. And you have to make, you have to make choices like that. And, and over the years, like, I think there's been guys who have been put in situations like that. It's helped their career immensely. And there's guys that you thought, you know, different of early, and then all of a sudden you're toggling back and forth like there's no perfect. There's no perfect formula. [00:28:59] Speaker B: Carving out a role, I think is an important thing for, for kids to wrap their head around and like, you got to get a roll first before you can get into the next role. And when you get into college, and I think in. I think a lot of times it's the first time that kids get on a campus and they're not the best guy and they're used to just, well, I, you know, I'm a, I'm a weekend starter. Like, I've always started for my high school team. Well, you kind of got to go back to square one. Like, show that you're good enough to pitch and then show that you're good enough to pitch in a leverage spot and make that progression. And being able to prove to you said, like, it's kind of in your hands, like, if you, if you're the seventh inning guy and you want to be the back end guy, like, you need to prove that you're capable of handling those three or six outs because they're different outs. You know, they're. It's not just three outs. Like, there's a reason that certain guys excel in those spots and certain guys don't. And being able to compete without it being personal, I think is kind of what sums up college baseball, is that most of the time your biggest competition is actually in your own dugout. But can you compete with those guys so that on game day you can compete together against the team in another uniform? And that's how you kind of level up. Like, you're talking about, you're not trying to take Barnes a spot on Friday, but on Saturday you're trying to out pitch them. Like, that sums up the core of college baseball. The programs that are really good, there's no, there's no envy. It's. Can you, can you raise up somebody else's game? And how can you do that? And how can you compete in your dugout? So that you can win more games when you're playing somebody in a different uniform [00:30:47] Speaker C: for sure. And I think you start to see that where, you know, one of the things. And our guys, hopefully none of them watch this because they will roast me for it. But, you know, one of those things that we really emphasize is like, hey, come in and get your guy. Like, if you get brought in out of the bullpen, we didn't bring you in to get the third guy, we brought you in to get that guy. And that's one of those things that, like, as a coach and as like a guy who, when you're dealing with a unit and a staff and being together, when you get your guy not for yourself, but you did it for the guy that just came out of the game, like, that's, that's when things get really special and they, they get a little bit different because you're no longer selfishly letting yourself down. You're pissed because you didn't, you didn't take care of it for the other guy. And nobody's ever going to be 100 hit rate on that. But when you do fail to get your guy, hopefully someone comes in and does it for you. And, and when guys truly believe in each other and care about each other, it's. It's amazing how different that vibe truly is. Like, they're the. You're. [00:31:52] Speaker A: It's. [00:31:52] Speaker C: Again, cliches are cliche for a reason. But you're, you're not pitching for you anymore. You're really pitching for that guy who had a great start but had to leave with first and second and one out. And now it's punch out popup, let's get some high fives and let's go score. But it's not about me pounding my chest and thinking about the things that I did. It's about the first guy out of the dugout who's, who's ERA and win and whatever it is you saved, like, that's when it gets pretty darn special. [00:32:25] Speaker A: And when it is that first guy out of the dugouts who's the guy that got lifted, like, that's when you know that dude's fired up. And the dude coming off the mountains like, I got you. [00:32:33] Speaker B: Yep. Yeah. [00:32:34] Speaker A: And I think that the one thing I had two things, but I forgot the other one. But like, when you're talking about the roles on the staff and throughout the season, like, I think it's important to also note, like, it's fluid throughout the course of the season. Like, very rarely in this sport do you start the season with like, okay, this is, I venture to say, never do you start to be like, okay, These are my 1 through 14 arms. Do you get to the end of the year and 1 through 14 are the exact same. Like, there's a lot of things that go on throughout the course of the season that are going to dictate where guys start to move and how guys throw in game. And, you know, guys are going to get dinged up. Guys, you know, guys might get shut down for a week or two because of whatever that reason might be. And, you know, some guy you weren't expecting steps up and all of a sudden they have a bigger role. You know, I think that that's one thing that especially younger kids don't necessarily grasp right away when you get into the season because, like, you've never gone through with a season that you are about to go through. Like, you haven't played 56 games, you haven't traveled all over the country, and let's face it, like, we all played Northeast Division 1 baseball. Like, you lived out of a bag for the first five or six weeks. Like, you're barely in class. Like, there's like, you're traveling all over the place. You're on planes, you're on buses. Like, there's a lot going on and you've never. And I think sometimes, like, you look at, you're like, well, I'm the 12th pitcher. Like, what do I do? And it's like, well, hey man, you're. You could be 14 by the end of the season, or you could be like 10 or 9 or 8, depending on what goes on. If you keep going about what you're doing and competing every day, and when you get the ball, if it's mop up duty, go out and go out and punch a bunch of guys out and be like, okay, hey, he showed us something there. Like now, instead of not pitching in the following midweek, maybe you are pitching in the midweek and maybe you do well there, maybe you don't, who knows? But the point is, like, it's a fluid thing throughout the course of the season. And the same thing holds true for, for position guys, you know, yeah, I write the lineup, but like, I wanted my job to be hard writing the lineup. And I think this was my second point. I remembered as I was talking, like, when you talk about guys picking up guys and like the pitcher coming out and get your guy, like, and, and competing and, you know, wanting this guy to be better, it's the same for infielders. Or, you know, like, if you have that backup infielder who's really good defensive, like push the starter, like if you're getting better, he's going to see that to push him. Like, that's getting the team better. Because all of a sudden, like now we have a bunch of guys who can really play defense. And now my job is hard, now I gotta split hairs to write a lineup. But we're getting better overall and then those guys pull for each other and like, that's when you start. You know, we had that, you know, a couple years and I was at rpi. Like, it's a special thing to be a part of when it's like, you know, guys are pulling for each other from like they compete all week in practice and they get in the game and it's like, doesn't matter, dude. Like, let's do it. Let's get this done. If I get into the game, I'm going to do everything I can do to help us win. But if not, I did what I did to prepare us this week so that we could win this game. And I think that that's, that's a special thing to be a part of and understand that that's something that happens in the college game. Doesn't mean that, that you're never going to get time to play. But you know, that year it might not be in the cards. [00:35:39] Speaker C: Yeah. And I don't know if, I mean, you, you tell me if you've ever been part of one, but I know, I think I'm up to God. This is 17 years and Division 1 baseball. I can promise you there's never been one year where even the three starters on the weekend have been the same the whole, the whole year, not one time. And, and those are the alleged three most important guys. Like if we're shuffling in and out there. Think about the mobility that happens behind the scenes and, and one of the things that you alluded to that just, it never really made sense to me. Like, especially even as a player, but especially as a coach, where if you see an opportunity in a blowout or a game where it's, there's not a lot on the line and you're not going to attack that opportunity to what? To show me? Like, yeah, you just did. You showed me I was right. [00:36:29] Speaker A: Like, right. [00:36:30] Speaker C: I just, I don't, I don't understand. It's. It's so self defeating and so like it's so contrary to what you're mad about in the first place that like, I don't know, I just don't. It's one of those that just doesn't really. The amount of time that guys spend to be college baseball players and not have a spring break or not have any of these other experiences that guys have, and then you're going to throw opportunities away. Just. Again, none of it makes sense. So it counterintuitive to me. [00:37:00] Speaker A: No, we. I used to talk about all the time with our guys. Like, you know, it when we would have, let's say we laid an egg and it like a frustrating egg where like we. We gave away a lot of things, you know, we'd always kind of talk about, like what, like, you know, I'd get frustrated sometimes, say, like, what's the point of doing all this? Like, to your point, like, the amount of times we practice, the stuff, the stuff you have to sacrifice, the time we spend in the weight room, all of this stuff to then, like, this is the fun part. Like, this is the part where you get to go out and compete. And when the pressure got too much, like, we folded. Like, why? What. Like what do we need? You know, And I, I just, I always. I, I thought the same way some, like in some instance where it's like, you know, and it was. It's like, why, like why. Why do all of this? If you get to the fun part and it's like, nah, whatever. Like that this isn't fun. Like, I don't want to practice all the time. I want to go out and compete and see where we stack up and see who we can beat and how good we can be. [00:37:57] Speaker C: And on that such a cool quote. We, we. One of the teams we played early in the year and it's, it's a Roger Clemens quote. So I could, I think you could probably guess which game we played earlier in the year that it was, it was, you know, the day I pitch is my day off. That's the day I just get to go do the thing that I love. All the other stuff, that's what. And that, you know, you kind of alluded to before. But like, game days aren't for coaches. They're not for us. That's for the players. Practices are for the coaches. We. If we can't prepare you in the time that we practice, then shame on us for not putting you in a position to take the day that should be your day off and actually enjoy it and get the most out of it that you can. And, and those days, like, you could say whatever records or anything that you want, like, those are all player Records, man. Like they, that's them going out and doing it and them making a commitment to us in the times where they probably on a Saturday morning weren't dying to hear my voice. I know there's probably a lot of people out there who are dying to hear my voice on a Saturday morning when they would just wanted to be a college student the night before and instead they show up ready to go with us. Like that's their reward for that in the end, that they get to have days off where they put on a uniform and go compete. [00:39:20] Speaker B: It's interesting and I'm sure you can speak to this and I know Keith can, but the kids who are willing to show up and go through the process to sound cliche again, but the kids who show up every day and they practice well and they're good teammates and they know they're not going to start, but their pre game's really good. They prepare, they go through their process, they go through their preparation, they're good in the dugout, they're engaged during the game. It's funny how it usually works out for those guys. [00:39:56] Speaker C: Crazy, isn't it? [00:39:57] Speaker B: They usually end up getting an opportunity and then because they prepared, they take advantage of the opportunity and that that pinch hit roll in the back of a blowout turns into a midweek start and then that midweek start turns into somebody got injured and we need you to fill in now and they're ready and all of a sudden you got a guy that ends up carving out a nice career for himself just because he decided that he was going to be a good teammate first and foremost and he was going to be committed to trying to be good at it. It every year. To your point, the lineup's never the same as it is on day one. The rotation is never the same as it is on weekend one. Guys get hurt, some guys throw, better guys get opportunities. And the guys who consistently prepare for that opportunity, it's funny how they end up usually performing well when they're given that opportunity. And the guys who want to have a really good pregame because they're not starting or they half ass their, their, their pregame throwing because they're the 14th guy on the pitch chart, those guys get passed. It's so competitive and the margins are so thin that that's oftentimes the difference for kids is who just who wants to take it and be really committed to it is oftentimes what is a difference for most guys in how their [00:41:26] Speaker C: careers play out well and to that point, who wants to look in the mirror and talk about how they prepared and understand that when it came down to it, when you weren't ready, it wasn't my fault or any other coach's fault. It was yours. Because the opportunity to prepare was there every day. And then all of a sudden a guy rolls an ankle and now you're going to get ready. No, that was supposed to be happening for the last two months. That's why such a weird coincidence that those. It seems to work out for those guys. [00:41:55] Speaker B: Well. And as a, as a coach, who are you more inclined in that situation? Like, you're making decisions on who gets to throw in games. You guys are up by. By 12 in the seventh on a Saturday and you want to save your bullpen guys for Sunday and you look down like you're going with the dude that you had no bust his ass and has a really good week. If I'm trying to find in a bad for somebody, I've had this conversation with Murph in the dugout. He'd be like, hey, what do you think? Let's get somebody so and so in. I'd be like, he was horseshit today. Give the other guy a chance. He was awesome. He's been awesome all week. Like, coaches use what you do during the week as information to make a decision on who's going to get the opportunity. [00:42:41] Speaker C: One of the other ones, I think that gets lobbed our way as coaches pretty often and, and to. To hide behind it and say that we don't have them. Like coaches. Oh, coach. Coach plays favorites. Yeah, we all do. The guys who show up and work hard and, and do the right things and listen to the things we tell them to do and compete for us and value the things we do. Yeah, well, yeah, those are. Those are my favorites. And guys who get it done are my favorites. And it doesn't mean we dislike you as people, but as players. Like, that's kind of your currency, isn't it? Like being able to show up to practice and get jobs done and, and all those things. Like, yeah, those are every coach's favorite every time. [00:43:22] Speaker B: Don't play politics. But we play favorites. [00:43:25] Speaker A: Yeah. And we've talked about this on here before and we're not going to beat a dead horse with it. But it's the same on the position side where, like when you. We were talking about carving out a role, like, I mean, you're a pitching guy, but, like, you know, if you're a plus defender, you might find yourself as a defensive replacement in the back end. Of the game. And that could then turn into you playing a little bit more and then a midweek start and same thing. Like, I mean, we had Hobbs on Hobbs talking about, I wish I remember the kid's name. He's like, I got here, and everyone was like, he. He can't play. He's like. And all of a sudden, he could play defense, couldn't hit. He's like, before you know it, like, we had to play him because we could pitch on. We played him on Friday nights because we. We could really pitch. And he defended. And all of a sudden, you look up, he's hitting like 290, and you're like, he's like. And this kid was only in the lineup to start because he could play defense. And then. But it was just that one opportunity. Like, showed up every day, you know? But, like, I remember we had a guy, Ryan, nearby. He pitched for me for four years, then went and finished up with Soups out at San Francisco. He would have this weird forearm thing where, like, he would. It would not strain, but it was just weird. He couldn't grip the baseball after, like, two starts, so we'd have to shut him down. Happened his last two years. Happened with Supes, too. But we, like, it worked out because we were like, I was able to start a guy that I wanted to be able to start hopefully later in the year, and was like, hey, this is an opportunity because it's early in the year. I'm not saying these games don't matter, but I want you to be able to go through the process of what it's going to be like to pitch on a weekend, because I see you do it. Like, if we make a deep postseason run, which we did, like, I need a fourth starter. Like, right now, I would see you as that guy. And it worked out because all of a sudden, this guy was able to pitch on the weekends and showed up and did really well. But also, like, when Ryan came back, you know, Ryan was pitcher of the year the year before. When he came back, he goes back in. He slides back into a midweek role. Like, he wasn't. There was no. Like, he just wanted to compete, but was able to be like, hey, I. I did this. And I, like, all of a sudden, you see that confidence grow of, like, wow, I was able to pitch on the weekends. Like, I think I can. Like, I'm going to be able to do this. And, like, his midweek starts were so much better moving forward because it's like, he had that confidence of, man, I Was able to go inning for inning with this team's number two and this team's number two. And you know, all of a sudden it starts to grow and then those guys on the bottom end that had to pitch a little bit more because he was going to throw the high leverage innings, like, they got better. [00:45:53] Speaker B: Better. [00:45:53] Speaker A: You know, I think some, like when you have that type of. When you have those things that can happen, like when you have some guys who want to step up and take that opportunity to your point, like, it can change a lot of things and it makes it a lot more competitive and a lot more fun to be around. Because all of a sudden it feels like, yo, we have nine or ten arms that, like, they're going to keep us in the game and we're going to have a legit shot. We score five or six, like, we're good today. And when you have an offense that feels like they only have to score like five to win and a pitching staff that's like, yo, we ain't giving up more than five today, so we're going to be good. Like, all of a sudden, like, you start to play really, really, really confident, hard nosed, tough baseball. And it's, it's fun to be around. [00:46:34] Speaker C: Very often that offense scores 12 and the pitching staff gives up too, because they don't. Because the other side of like, they don't think, like, oh, man, like, the offense is, you know, we give up too early. And the offense, the offense is like, oh, God, okay, we got it. We got. They're going to, they're going to have a day. We got to go score. Well, that's how you get goose egg trying to go score, like, instead of playing it. It's so. It's such a weird aspect of our game that it's like, it's definitely like, people talk about it as defense and offense and pitching and there's a lot of separation when you discuss those. But that's such. It's like complimentary football, right? Like, it's like the three phases where if you, if you don't do one of them, they can, they can take the other ones down. Like you run a football offense out on and it's three and out, after three and out. Eventually that Bears defense goes, all right, I've had enough. Like, I'm good. Sorry to all the Bears fans that I've coached. [00:47:29] Speaker B: Are you Bears fan? [00:47:32] Speaker C: I'm a Niners fan. Yeah. So, yeah. [00:47:36] Speaker B: Really? [00:47:37] Speaker C: Yeah. My dad wasn't a football guy and actually would have been more trendy during that time growing up to like the Bills because that was like the four Super Bowls. Steve Young was a left handed guy throwing on tv and I'm left handed. So I was like, oh, I like that guy. That was a dark, dark time for a long time. And then, yeah, now we just get to get tortured by Mahomes every couple of years. [00:47:58] Speaker B: So [00:48:00] Speaker A: I get tortured every Monday morning with Andy giving me a rundown of how good the Niners are and that they're going to contend for a Super bowl for the next 45 years. While my giants are talking about drafting JJ McCarthy, [00:48:16] Speaker C: national championship winner, man, winning [00:48:19] Speaker A: competitor, hands the ball. He's great at handing the ball off to no running back, by the way, that the Giants let walk. [00:48:28] Speaker C: It doesn't seem like you're holding on to that at all. [00:48:33] Speaker A: I digress. Again, I'm sorry. [00:48:35] Speaker B: All right, back to baseball. I got, I want to, I want to split some hairs on the character stuff. [00:48:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:48:45] Speaker B: Because I know this is important to you and it's important to a lot of guys. And I think it's something that needs to continue to be reiterated to people because how you handle yourself, how you communicate, how you present yourself is really important. You get two guys who are really, really similar from a talent perspective. What are some of the things that a guy can do in a positive light that can tip the scales towards that guy being the guy who ultimately gets a roster spot or an offer or whatever it is? Like, what are some of the, the character traits and interactions that you see with kids that get you excited about a guy? [00:49:18] Speaker C: I'm actually going to give you the two simplest ones for me, number one, and it'll be in the recruiting process, is how he treats his parents. That can tell you a lot about a kid, especially when they don't think you're around or you don't see certain things. And hey, we've all been emotional teenagers at times, but there's always certain lines that you're probably not going to cross with, with your parents if there's a certain level of respect. And, and if they don't respect their parents, I'm pretty sure they're not going to respect me because why would they? And then in on our team, it cannot be understated how important being a good teammate is. And that doesn't mean being liked, but being a good teammate. And there, there's an important distinction between the two. Like there's a lot of guys who are really, really well liked, who are again, maybe not even bad teammates, just nothing as a Teammate, they're really well liked. But like, if you're not a good teammate, a guy who can challenge people, a guy who can show up and, and elevate the people around you, like, that's how I define a good teammate guy. Guys who bring people up and, and when myself or any of the other coaches is being a hard O and, and giving people a hard time, is that the guy who you can see hauls off to the side and whispers or is a guy who goes, oh, man, okay, they're right, let's go. And, and accountability has so much to do with being a good teammate. So that the two easiest ones there for me and one in the recruiting process and one a little bit more so, like when we're talking about making travel rosters or certain things like that, and it's never always that simple, but if it comes down to two guys who are equal, vibes are important. Man. [00:51:13] Speaker B: I like the distinguished, the distinction between nice guy and good teammate because the leaders hold teammates accountable. And it's not always easy to do that when you're 18, 19, 20 years old. And there is an element of like, you want to be liked. But the really good teammates aren't necessarily going to show people up, but when somebody's not doing what they're supposed to do, they're going to make sure that that guy gets back in line. And the best teams that I've ever coached and the best teams I've ever been on, most of the policing happened with the players and the coaches didn't have to do a lot of it. And I think that that comes down to exactly some of the character traits you're talking about is how much does it matter to you and are you willing, are you willing to have a tough conversation as a teammate because it's the right thing to do and make sure that everybody's on the same page. And that's hard when you're 18 and 19. And I think if you can even just have a handful of guys, the trickle down effect that that can have is massive because then it goes, the seniors who are good at it, the juniors learn, and then you start to develop a pipeline of guys who kind of hold the line when it comes to the standards of a program. And obviously you're coaching in the program you played at. I got to imagine that that's pretty important for you. [00:52:40] Speaker C: No doubt. I guess I'll give you two versions of it. One that's current and then, and then one that is guess from my playing days. So when I was Playing, I had, we had a, actually a name that you probably remember. Brian Kemp. Kid could really go get the baseball. One of the fastest guys I've ever seen pulls a hammy and we have a young dude in there playing outfield in a conference game. And I'm on the mound and I'm a senior and two outs, nobody on. He dives for a ball he wasn't going to catch, but it was an effort. Play ball goes through him, goes to the wall, it's a triple. Next guy, next guy up was Jed Jerko. I give us, give up a single in the six hole and run scores. And then I get the next guy out and, and I'm again emotional as I may tend towards. And I'm, I'm dog cussing the idiot freshman because you were catching that ball. Why are we diving for a ball in front of an all, all conference player? Like, keep him on first base. I love it's great effort, but like, and I wish I'd said it that maturely, but I didn't. I just screamed at him. And one of my roommates comes barreling down the dugout and he was a senior who is an outfielder who wasn't playing and he gets in my face and tells me, hey, that's an effort play he's doing. He's laying out for you. And we fingers in each other's faces, screaming at each other, whatever, and we sat on the couch and watched the office together that night. And that's what it was. We turn the page because in that moment, whoever's right, wrong, whatever, like we're fighting each other as teammates, but that happens. And then you leave the field, you take your costume off, you take a shower and you go home. And then all of a sudden, now you're friends. Like those are two different worlds and you're, you're able to do those different things at the same time. And, and, and in the end, like, yeah, I was being super immature because I gave up a run and it was a dumb play, but I shouldn't talk to a guy like that. And this was, I mean, I was Biggie's pitcher of the year that year and that was a guy who wasn't a starting guy on our team who was comfortable enough to get in my face and tell me I was being an asshole. And that's pretty darn important to have that in a group and in the other side, it kind of happened on the team I was on. But I think, you know, great thing we have going now is we've Got a group of older dudes who. I think you've seen the way that different responsibilities get shared. Like, it's really tough to be the guy who wags his finger and the guy who puts a hand on somebody's back and says, hey, man, it's going to be all right. And so when you got four, five, six older guys who, hey, you could have two or three guys, who are the guys who make sure the rules are followed. And you have two or three guys who, hey, man, like, I've been through this before. It's going to be okay. And like, when they can play off of each other like that, and you can have some dudes who. Who can share responsibilities. And I think that's what we're really lucky to have right now. We've got a couple experienced guys who I think have different roles in holding each other accountable or helping each other along and being good teammates and good leaders and. And elevating the program, because that's what we're all here for, right? It's all to do this together and elevate the program. And since we have a couple guys who are different personalities. And then I guess kind of going off on my tangent for the day, Keith, is, you know, you definitely want to recruit guys with the same values as you, but be very careful recruiting the same person as you do, because a room full of 35 of me would end up very bloody and not good. Like, I think I'd probably get annoyed with myself, just like I'm sure a bunch of our players do, and. And like, being able to have different dudes around. Like, there's some guys for levity. There's some guys who keep things serious. There's some guys who, you know, have different roles in the group. And like, there's the guy who. Who gets his chops busted every single day and keeps on coming back with a smile on his face, like, that guy's on every team. And. And without that guy, like, it's really tough to. To survive with a group. [00:57:15] Speaker B: Spend a lot of time together. A lot of time together. When you're in those relationships and those roles change and, you know, hopefully you got enough guys that hold the line with. With the stuff that really matters and gives. Gives other guys space to be themselves, right? Because I think that you don't want to create a bunch of robots. You want guys to be comfortable in their own skin, because that's how you get the best version of them, at least in my experience, is that you don't ever want to take away what makes a kid good. And sometimes the kid who brings a levity like that's part of why he's good is because he doesn't take anything too serious. But at the same time you've got the hard ass who's good because he's a hard ass and you don't want to, you don't want to zap that either. So managing that as a coach is. That's kind of the finer art of it and something that you get better at the more you do it. Like when do you just let it happen? When do you, you know, step in and try to control some stuff? And that's an interesting part of the, the player management dynamic that I mean when I was first coaching, like terrible at it because it was just me trying to enforce my will and my beliefs on. Then you get a little bit older and like sometimes the best thing you can do is not coach. Sometimes the best thing you can do is just let them be them and be there to answer questions, be there to give them confidence. And figuring that out as a coach is I think is one of the hardest things for specifically young coaches to realize is that there's a lot you don't know. And the quicker you realize that, the easier it is to figure some stuff out. [00:58:56] Speaker C: Then the cross we all bear. I guess this is the. My version of the seasoned old coach where I do think the player has changed in that the amount of information that they have access to and the amount of coaching guys have received by the time they show up is they are differently thirsty for a combination of coaching and approval and knowing when like there's guys who feel neglected if you don't say things when you didn't think you needed to or. And, and in a lessons developed world, like where you see a lot of guys who throw a pitch and it's like, was that good? It's like ask the catcher. He caught it, man. Like you know if it was good. Like in the end, like they're so. You guys are so used to their. The guy who gives them lessons or the guy who coaches them on a day to day. Like they're so used to that approval being the thing that matters or the thing that makes them comfortable. That. Yeah, you have to have a balance of that too. Like some guys, some guys do need to hear, yo, dude, that was filthy. Yeah, he knows, but sometimes he just wants to hear you say it too. [01:00:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I thought that was one of the, one of the, I don't want to say biggest changes, but one of the things that I had to adjust my coaching style to, but I, like, I had to. I kind of got out in front of it when I realized what would. Like that. That there were a lot of guys who kind of needed. I don't want to say a lot, but there were guys that needed that affirmation almost constantly. And I, you know, with our. Especially with our younger guys, like, when they would come in, our freshmen, I'd be like, I'd get out in front, be like, listen, if I'm not. If I don't say anything after your round of bp, like, that doesn't mean anything bad. I, like, I'm just trying to get a feel for what your swing is right now. Like, it's practice two. Like, I haven't necessarily. Like, I haven't been able to coach you yet. I need to see how this looks in. Give me a week and let me actually get a feel for what this is. And same thing with the arms. Like, hey, give me a little bit of time to just really acclimate to what it is you do and how it plays and those things. Like, yeah, I'm going to coach you and we're going to talk about stuff, but I'm not going to say something every pitch, and I'm not going to say something every single swing. Like, and that. That's also not my coaching style. But I noticed that with some guys where they swing and be like. And I'm like, bro, there's another pitch coming. [01:01:30] Speaker C: It's Pavlog's dogs, man. Like, become conditioned. Like, where the sound of the bell and like, where, like, my. My affirmation is your bell that you did it. Okay, Is that good? Yes. Okay, time for the next pitch. Like, I can't be there with you on the mound. Like, I. As soon as we get. Actually, hopefully they don't do it where I can. You can talk into the pitchers here outside of the catcher, because then it'll just be all the way up to. Up to the pitch. It's like, hey, you're great. You're awesome. [01:01:58] Speaker B: This. [01:01:59] Speaker C: You're going to dominate this. [01:02:01] Speaker A: You are amazing. It's gonna be like the, like the. [01:02:05] Speaker C: The Tony Robbins in his ear. [01:02:06] Speaker A: Yes, Tony Robbins. That's what I was looking for. [01:02:08] Speaker B: Yes, yes. [01:02:10] Speaker A: But, like, it's true. Like, like, you'd be. I'd be throwing BP and like, they would, like, wait for me to, like, say something. I'm like, man, like, I. I gotta throw another pitch here. Like, you're. You're screwing up my flow here. [01:02:20] Speaker C: Killing my rhythm, bro. [01:02:22] Speaker A: What are we doing? And then they keyhole you. Then you get mad and you're like, look, man, come on. Like, that's a strike. Please swing the bat. But like, no, you're right. Like, it's it. I don't think that we're the old head saying it, but, like, there has there. That was noticeable at the tail end of my coaching career. Like, I saw. Like, I just tried to get out in front of it with guys of like. Like, the guys that I kind of noticed. Like, hey, man, like, I'm not going to speak to you after every swing or every pitch. Like, we'll talk through it from time to time. But, like, I also haven't spent. Like, I haven't been able to coach you yet. Like, let me see what you do so that I can figure out what I think is going to work and what I think might need to change. Like, you know, I've talked about this on here before, and I. You didn't get to coach him, unfortunately. But like, Dan Paolini, who played for Jimmy and I at Siena before you got there, like, if you showed up and watched him hit in college, like, no one would ever teach anybody to hit like. Like that. You know, I mean, like, I didn't [01:03:21] Speaker C: do any barrel balls like that. [01:03:23] Speaker A: I think he. He stood with his hands forward, waggled his bat, had a big leg kick. Like, if you showed up watching people be like, you can't hit like that. And the dude hit like, 49 home runs in three years. [01:03:34] Speaker C: Like, is that good? [01:03:36] Speaker A: I was. [01:03:37] Speaker B: I. [01:03:37] Speaker A: But like, that was a young, a teachable moment for me where it was like, yo, like, you don't have to teach everything. Like, sometimes things like this work. And it was. It was a huge growing up moment for me. And it took me a very long time to grow up and mature and to be a, you know, a head coach and do those things. But, like, it was a. It was a watershed moment for me because it was like, maybe you don't need to teach literally everything. Like, some guys can do things that other dudes can't. And, you know, you could go in there and change his swing and do this stuff and, like, he probably would have sucked and not been as good as he was. And like, then you, you know, you look back and kind of got to live with that. And, like, you know, I'm glad that I didn't change anything. And, you know, know, Danny had a phenomenal career and, you know, made AAA and did a lot of cool things and Hit a lot of home runs and it was really, really good for seeing he just got inducted to the hall of Fame too. Deservedly so. But yeah, I mean that like you showed up and there's no way. I remember watching him take bp. I was like, there's no way this kid can hit. It was like, whap, whap, whap. Like, well, the hell do I know? This 23 year old kid who just started coaching. I got the whole world figured out. [01:04:46] Speaker C: Yeah. And kind of goes back. So one of the things I like to read a bunch and one book that I read during this off season is called the Program. I know they've done a lot of speaking, art conventions and a couple Navy Seals. And one of the things they ask you to do is talk about or decide your core values of the group that you're going to be in charge of and what matters to you. And, and, and one of the things that you kind of alluded to, you know, for me it comes down to commitment, accountability, growth and fun. And if I can have a bunch of dudes who are all about those things. Yeah. Like, I think we're going to be all right. And, and the growth part to me is kind of what you talked about there. It's like not under, not thinking like you're a finished product ever, because we're so all far from that. And, and yeah, if at 37, I think I've got it all figured out and I'm like, oh, I've arrived because I, I got, I read a book. No, man, like, if, if I don't learn anything from now to the end of my career, what am I doing? Like, yeah, and those are, those are the people that as, as players especially, and people in like any circle that I'm going to value their opinion if, if, if you don't value growth and, and trying to better yourself and get better, like, yeah, man, like, it, it probably professionally isn't going to work for us. Like, it just doesn't, we don't line up. And, and that's because that's important to me. It doesn't mean it has to be important to you, but it's important to me. [01:06:11] Speaker A: Right. And I, I think, you know, I, I, we talked about this earlier, we won't get into it, but I was for, I came up with dinosaurs in this game. But I also, you know, we play, I finished my career playing for Dennis Healy, who, my personal opinion is one of the best pitching guys that I'd ever been around. But he had said something to me, when he was at Wake, where he was, he was like, you know, every year I, like, I try to get better at coaching, whether it's through books or conventions or whatever. He's like, you know, if I am going to continually ask my players to get better, I need to better myself in order to make them better. And I was fortunate enough that I was, you know, I was young enough as a coach and impressionable where. And I still am, but, like, where that resonated with me, where it was, like, that makes a lot of sense. Like, if I'm going to continually ask my players to get better, like, I can't just continually do the same things over and over and over again, because that's not growth. That's not getting anybody better. We're not. We're not changing anything, you know, And I think that that's an important thing to kind of understand. And I think that that's, you know, when you. Like, I have guys now who played for me that are coaching and they call you and they're like, yo, it's so different on the coaching side of things. And it's like, yeah, like, when you're a player, you kind of go through this thinking, like, oh, they just make a Practice Plan A 20 minutes before practice and then roll out to practice, and here we go. Like, no, man, there's a lot of thought and effort that goes into what we're going to be doing every day of the week leading into the weekend and where throwing programs look and what we need to cover. And then, you know, add in the fact that at most programs, like, you're scheduling buses and hotels and meals and all the other things that go into what you have to do from a coaching standpoint where, you know, you have to, you know, you have to get better at that stuff. Like, if you're not good at organization, you. You have to figure it out pretty quickly in this business because it's going to eat you alive, you know? But I think that it's coach for [01:08:04] Speaker C: Tony Rossi, because, [01:08:08] Speaker A: yes, good, hang out with him and you'll get organized pretty quickly. Erase all the names off the folders and then reuse them for the next class. [01:08:21] Speaker C: We laugh, but, like, it legitimately is like that. You look back and you're like, man, I remember being 25 and having it all figured out and being like, what is this? What does this guy know? I know what I'm talking about. And then you're just like, oh, damn it. [01:08:36] Speaker A: You leave and you're like, I literally. It's like, do you know nothing, Jon Snow? Like, that's, that's what this is. Like, you, you literally know nothing. And I. But I think that that, like, you [01:08:46] Speaker C: know, Game of Thrones reference. I appreciate that. [01:08:50] Speaker A: Thank you. My wife and I are re. Watching it, so I'm, I'm, I'm in it right now. But the, yes, the, you know, the, the, like with that, though, like, you know, one of my things with our team is always like, you know, I wanted us to be humble. Like, I want us to be good, but I want us to be humble about stuff. And I think sometimes, like, you know, that can create some growth when you can at least be humble enough to be, like, I don't know everything. Like, there, there's more in there for us to be able to learn and, and be able to grow and do things in order to make ourselves better version. Like, not only better baseball players, but better versions of ourselves and better humans. Because, you know, I think for us, you know, and not so much Andy and I anymore, because we're not coaching, but when you're in it, like, you can turn over the calendar every year and you're going to be able to coach and you're going to be able to throw on your ball suit and you're going to be able to go compete and do those things, like, it's a finite window for these kids to be able to do that. And I think that, like, it took me. It took me a while, but, like, when you start to realize that as a coach of, like, yo, it's a finite window that these kids have, like, they need to get, you know, they're not going to get the best version of you every single day. [01:09:57] Speaker B: Right? [01:09:57] Speaker A: Like, it's just. That's not going to happen. But if they can get the best version of you more often than not, like, you're going to be able to get the best out of those kids. And I think, like you said earlier, like, being authentic and understanding that, like, you know, and I think a big part of today's game, like, the kids want to know that you're human, right? Like, we, when we grew up, like, we didn't. You didn't know anything about your coaches really, Right? Like, you didn't know what they did. You didn't know if they were married. You didn't know they had kids. Like, you know, it wasn't a thing that, like, happened, like, nowadays. Like, you know, my kids knew my wife, they knew that, you know, they knew our son. Like, they were super fired up to See him at the field and, dude, like, we didn't. I never grew up with coaches that did that. But I think that, like, when they can see that you're actually a human being and you do make mistakes and you have other things, like, it adds more value to what it is that you're doing, because it's like, well, he's just. He's just a human being. Just like, we are. Like, we'll. We'll get there eventually. But I think that, like, understanding that finite window that these guys have, when, you know, we can continually do it year after year after year, like, they only get four years. Well, we have another pandemic. You can get 10, but, you know, you only get four years at this. And, you know, they deserve the. The most that they can get out of their. Their college experience. [01:11:11] Speaker C: Amen, brother. [01:11:13] Speaker A: All right, last question. We took up enough of your time tonight. Oh, sorry, Andy. [01:11:17] Speaker B: I got. I got one thing. I wanna. I wanna. Because I think this. You're hitting at this growth thing, and I think that one of the coolest things that we get to do is talk to guys like you and Rob De Toma and Eric Suple and whoever. And it's learning. For me and Keith, like, every time we have one of these interviews and we get a chance to talk with. With old friends and guys who are really good at their jobs, I walk away from this and I have stuff and I'm like, okay, I need to. I need to mix that in. Like, that's important. I liked how he said that. Never thought of it that way. Or if we're at a game. Like, I remember watching games, a couple games with you and hearing you talk about pitchers, and it. It's like, okay, I know how you think about it now a little bit more, but also that's. That's information to put in my library. It's something for me to think about when I'm evaluating a kid. It's a. It's a way to think about the game of baseball. It's a way to think about how you treat your players right. Like Keith just said, these guys have a finite window. I never thought of it that way, but it's so true. Like, those kids get. Most vast majority kids get four years, and you kind of owe them the best four years that you can give them. And if you're a coach and you look at it that way, it kind of spins it on its head a little bit of how you show up for those kids every day. And it's. Yeah, these type of Conversations are something I've, not only is it fun, but, you know, you learn to cherish them because you learn a lot. It's important. [01:12:49] Speaker C: No doubt, man. I mean, for, for me, I couldn't appreciate coming on here to chat more because it, it just the same, like it reinvigorates thoughts that maybe I haven't talked about with our gu. Or things like that that I've said in the past that I, that I really like or enjoy. And when it boils down to it, man, like a good coach is just a really good thief. Like, you're just stealing and taking from everybody else. And, and there's, there's no, there's no doubt that like 98% of what I say is just repackaged, reprocessed from Scott Brown or Ed Blankmire or Matt Sink or Dean E. Hall or Tony Rossi or any Joe Panucci, any long list of people that I've been like, so insanely fortunate to get to learn from. And understanding that, like, we're so very lucky. Like, not for nothing, like I'm in my work clothes and I'm wearing. Every time I walk down the street, someone's like, hey, you going, going to play golf today? It's like, well, it looks like I am, but like, and having that appreciation for the fact that like, that's what we get to do. And we are all, we are all support staff for these kids, like in their, in their athletic journey. Like, it's not about us anymore, it's about them. And that's definitely something that, that we need to recognize as coaches. So I'm going to be stealing that from you guys about that four year window very well. [01:14:09] Speaker A: I forget who we had on. We were talking about, like, I made our guys in inner squads and stuff run to second base and touch second base to go hard out of the box and get guys to like, get, just, just run hard out of the box. And it got to the point where the older guys would start, like, someone didn't do it. Like, guys would start getting on each other. And I was like, all right. Like, we're, we're getting to that point. And I forget who you're talking to. They're like, that's awesome. I'm going to steal that. And I was like, I stole that. So I am not taking credit for that. I stole that from Coach Peretti. I saw him doing it and was like, okay, if he's doing probably works. So I'm going to mix that into my practices. I don't know if he Stole it from somewhere, but at least, like, I'm not taking credit for that one. Like, I stole that from Coach Peretti. But you're right. Like, the basket, like, you. You steal a lot. Like, I don't want. You shouldn't say steal stuff, but, like, you do. Like, you. You take things from other guys. And, you know, I do like doing this stuff, but, like, I would always talk about this with, like, going to. You'll work headfirst, or you go work showball. You go work some of those events. Like, I like doing it not only from a recruiting standpoint, but, like, you get to talk to other coaches who are good at their jobs about what they do. And, like, you know, you go talk to a Mike Deegan at Denison, who. I mean, they're like, number two in the country right now at Division three. Like, that dude does a really good job. Like, hey, man, what are you doing that's different from everyone else? And, you know, it's. I think being able to kind of learn from. When you're a young coach and being able to learn from some. From guys. Like, again, we've grew. We grew up with guys who've been around this game for a long time. Like, you can learn a lot of stuff that, like, you can start to take and be like, hey, I value this. I'd, like, man, maybe not this so much. And, like, it. It starts to. It grows you into the coach that you become. And I think that that's what young coaches. Because we have a lot of coaches who listen to this. Like, I think that's young coaches that. That need to understand in this game, too. Like, you know, there's a. You don't know everything. And the faster you can realize that you don't know everything, the better you can start to be calm, and the better you can get, because there's a lot out there that you can learn. All right, last question. What advice would you give families in this recruit process? [01:16:26] Speaker C: Try to keep it as generally helpful as possible, because I think when it. When it boils down to it, like, we're all looking for the same thing, right? And that's. That is the best fit and not the best place. And in defining what that means for you becomes really important. So as a family and as. As a unit, I think discussing the things that are important because it can get really. Like, you get really simple when you're talking about just the baseball or just the. The place of the baseball or the facility, like, write down all the things that matter and try to check off as many of those boxes as you can. Understand that you're never going to check all of them. But keep the main things there. The main things like I think sometimes we get a little bit off the path and, and it doesn't become the decision that we were looking for in the first place and, and we didn't really adhere to the things that we said were going to be important. So if you can, if you can identify that for yourself, like what truly really is important and make your decision based on that, I think that's where we'll probably start to see less of the transfers and less of the movement and less of the. Because it is so easy to bounce around now and, and I don't blame anybody for their thoughts on the portal. I think in the end it's actually, it's just like anything. We live in a capitalist society where like there's always going to be self correction and like we're going to eventually find like water finding its level and, and where it all evens out as we all navigate a new system like that. I think we're going to understand that like if you do a really good job searching out the things that actually matter to you and your family, you're probably going to see a lot less names in there. So I would say that's, that's the simplest way I could say it. [01:18:32] Speaker B: Extremely well said. I think that's a great way to end it. Appreciate you, George. I know you had a long day and really appreciate you spending some time with us. Obviously best of luck to you and your pursuit of a Big east title. Keep it rolling. I know you guys are playing well right now and wishing nothing but the best, man. And excited to see at some point this spring or summer, I know we'll meet up at one of these games. [01:19:00] Speaker C: No, I, I can't thank you guys enough for having me on to again. Just chop it up with a couple of dudes. I like talking ball with to start but like in the end when it comes down to it, like that's what we're all trying to do, man. Just enjoy every moment in this game. And you know, it was a long day filled with, you know, I got to have breakfast with my kids, I watched a baseball game and then I drove over the George Washington Bridge. Things are, things aren't that bad. Life is pretty darn good. [01:19:27] Speaker B: Hell yeah. Well, thanks again man. All best for those of you listening. Tune in next week and we'll talk to you soon. Thanks everybody. Thank you for listening this week. If you're watching on YouTube, go ahead and hit that subscribe button and smash that like button for us. Check us out on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts as well as Spotify. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram MD Baseball if you want to find out what me and Keith do to help families and players navigate the recruiting process, go ahead and check us out on emdbaseball.com take a few minutes to check out our new online academy. I promise you'll get some good information out of that. Thanks again for listening. Check in with you next week.