Episode Transcript
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Cali Gloves K a l I gloves.com welcome to this week's edition of Dugout Dish Podcast. I am your host tonight, Keith Glasser. I will not be joined by the handsome Andy Kirikitis as he is out watching games. However, we do have a phenomenal guest that I've known for a very long time. Excited to have him on, but tonight's guest has spent a decade building one of the most dominant Programs in Division 3 Baseball is the associate head coach at Denison University. Ryan Romick has helped the Big Red win five straight conference titles. We reached the NCAA World Series, develop all Americans year after year. This year we have the he has the Big Red poised as the top pitching staff in Division 3 with the lowest ERA. We'll see how it shakes out. But I have confidence in you but super excited to have you on tonight. I'm glad that you said yes to come talk baseball with us. But Ryan, welcome to the show man.
[00:01:57] Speaker B: Thanks for having me, man. Appreciate it. Known you for a while. I'm always enjoy talking to you. So looking forward to talking again.
[00:02:04] Speaker A: Yeah, it's going to be great. We're going to talk shop all night long. Which is which is what I think the two of us really enjoy doing.
But before we get going, if you could just give the listeners a quick rundown of how you got to Denison for your second stint.
[00:02:16] Speaker B: Yeah, honestly the first time I got there I was a GA at a small D2 school in West Virginia.
I've known Coach Deegan for a while and worked some camps for him and I was basically just begging him for a job and was coaching summer ball in New England.
In New Bedford, Mass.
He Called me and said, hey, got the Denison job. You want to come? And I said, sure. And he goes, you know where it is? And I said, no idea. He's like, it's in Ohio. And I said, I've lived in Ohio my whole life. I still have no idea where that is.
So we, that started in 2012, worked for it from two years. We did well. Just trying to.
That was his first head coaching gig, my first time being a full time assistant. So we were kind of learning together and trying to figure it out. We were trying to change the culture and kind of clean up the program. And I got the Dayton pitching job. From there I went there, was a pitching coach and recruiting coordinator for three years.
Then went to Ohio University for a year, got married. My wife worked in Columbus. It made more sense for us to be closer to Columbus.
Um, and his assistant left and went to Davidson. Now works for the Guardians. Great, great coach and got my old job back and been there ever since. So that's, that's kind of how the round of roundabout happened for Denison.
[00:03:45] Speaker A: Coach Deegan's one of the best ones out there in my personal opinion.
He was always great to me on the road when I was a young coach and he was even, you know, he was a great guy even when I became a head coach. So, you know, I. And what he's done at Denison and what you guys have been able to accomplish and with, with Link before that, you know, I think that it's. He's one of the best out there. If you don't follow Denison or you haven't seen that, you know, he posts actually a lot. I think he still does post a lot of stuff on Twitter that's actually worth your time in reading. He does a great job of actually coaching the coaches and coaching the players and I think that a lot of the stuff he puts out, he reminds me a lot of the guy I coach or coach coach for at Siena, Coach Rossi.
You know, somebody who's like legitimately invested in the players and the coaches and the people around him to elevate them and make them better, which I always thought was, you know, I think is something that is dying in our game unfortunately. But you know, I think it's, it's when you see it, you know what it is. And I think he's one of the really good ones in this game. And I, you know, I, I so happy that you guys are. Have been as successful as you've been over the last couple years.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: Yeah, it's such A systematic approach to what goes on. So nothing happens by chance. And he's one of those guys. It's not lucky that things happen. And of course, the game of baseball involves a little bit of bounces and luck, but as far as how we go about our business, and that's why I think there's a sustained level of solid play and whether or not you win a ton of games or win more than you should or whatever. But he's very systems approached. He's very about the people and the culture and the way we do things and how we move and shake.
And that goes from. From the coaches to the manager to the trainer to the strength coach. It's. It's everybody involved. So it's not. It's not surprising that, that we've moved in a positive direction, I think. But, you know, it takes a lot to, like, win a lot of games and things to happen the way they do. But, um, he's. He's one of the best humans in the game at baseball that I've run into, for sure. Um, and so awesome to call him a friend and, and it's been great to work for him.
[00:06:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's one of those things in this game, like, I don't know, that you can find somebody who has a negative thing to say about him. Yeah, that's hard to do in this game. It's like, there's generally going to be someone who's like, I don't know about that guy. Like, there's few of them in this game and he's one of them. Where, like, you're. You're not going to find a lot of dudes that are going to be like, yeah, no, I don't know.
[00:06:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:29] Speaker A: All right, so to kick this off, we always ask everyone, how do you guys go about finding players at Denison?
[00:06:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's evolved for sure. Just as we've gotten better and gotten a little bit more notoriety. I think when we first started, it was the mass email, throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks kind of deal.
But as we've gotten better and now Deeks has this long track record of being a Denison and is that same guy has a ton of relationships now. I've, you know, was there and then it came back. So those relationships now for, you know, 10 or 12 years or whatever, it's a lot of relationships and that, that doesn't just mean, like, you know, Keith sends me a text, says, I have a guy.
Those things do happen for sure.
But even, like, relationships with facilities, relationships with summer ball coaches, relationships with recruiting services, because it matters.
They know it matters to us, like who we get, not, like, what we get.
So now those relationships have helped because now we, you know, it's not, it's not hard to find a talented pitcher, it's not hard to find a talented hitter. It's not.
But finding the people that fit in what you're looking for in the program and being the right dudes, that's tough.
And so you have to sort through some guys to find those guys. And so those relationships matter a ton. Because now you can rely on people that you trust to say, hey, this guy's a. This is a good kid from a good family. He's going to fit.
Because you know how, you know how it goes. You, you coached a long time. It's like there's struggles. Like, even when you get a good kid, there's still struggles. And so you need someone who's invested in and able to work through a struggle, able to work through an injury, able to work through not playing. When you're a good player, if you're at a good program, sometimes you can be good and not play.
And so finding the right kids that are looking for the experience that we're able to offer, I think is vitally important. So the relationships piece has gone through the roof. You know, obviously there's the academic showcase events, which are, which are important because it's way better for us as a small school to spend money going to a place where we know where what we're recruiting.
Going out to just watch a Legion baseball game, which I played growing up, doesn't do us any good. There's. There's maybe one guy on the field that you can recruit. So that, that doesn't really work.
You still go to summer tournaments, and especially now that we have some really good facilities in Central Ohio and then in Indianapolis, there's a lot of, like, Virginia teams and D.C. teams that will come. There's a lot of Philly teams and New York teams that'll come over and play. So you can see teams from outside the area that, that still matters. But I would say it's way less of, like, going out and watching random tournament games is what it used to be. It's way more relationship based. You kind of know where you're looking in, the pockets you're looking in, and you try to rely on good people in those areas to help you, because your recruiting budget's not, you know, a million dollars. You can't just fly around and Drive around and shoot. Shoot from the hip.
[00:09:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's the one. I mean, you hit on a couple things, but the.
I think a lot of people don't really understand when you go through the recruiting process as a student athlete, what the recruiting budget is at every school. Right. Like, I think a lot of people view it through the lens of, like, the. The power force of, like. Well, you know, if you're good enough, they'll find you. Like.
Yeah. I mean, they can fly over the country and do whatever they want to do. Like, my $7,000 recruiting budget isn't really going to get me all the way down to Texas 15 times to see you throw. Yeah, that's just not going to happen.
And, you know, you have to strike that balance of being able to get in front of the coaches that you want to be in front of.
However that is possible, whether it's going to be their camps, the academic showcase camps, or tournaments that your team are going to be with, but being able to get in front of them and be able to be seen by them. And I think you're a billion percent right that the talent aspect of it is rather easy to evaluate from a recruiting perspective. And it's not. I. I think it's kind of always been that way. Right. Like, we've all. You do this long enough.
Being able to find guys that can play for you, I think from a talent perspective, I think is relatively easy. The super hard part is figuring out whether or not that kid fits into your program and what it is that you're building or trying to sustain with where you're at.
And that's where, you know, a lot of people kind of get jammed up. And I think, you know, the older you get, you know, and, you know, you become a father, like we both are, and you work for a guy like digs, like, you start to really understand what works for you as well from a coaching perspective. And I think that, you know, it took me a little bit of time when I became a head coach. You know, I think it's a little bit easier as an assistant because you can just kind of, you know, be the assistant. Like, you know, the. The wins and losses don't go on my record. And if they're mad at, you know, head coach, they're not mad at me. Like, type thing, right? And you become the head coach, it becomes a little bit different where, like, you know, the wins and losses are on you and, like, everything runs through you.
You have to start to figure out, like, what type of player Actually works for you.
And, you know, like, you might pass on some kids. Like, it might not be a character issue. Right? Like, great kid, great family, but you meet with them, you talk with them, you do everything, and it's like, gosh, I don't know if he's gonna fit in here with us, and I don't know if he's gonna fit in with me. And we spend a lot of time together, and that could be a reason you, Vaughn. And it's not a negative. You know, I think some people view it as a negative all the time. It's like, hey, man. Like, it's not a negative because it probably wasn't going to work out there in the long run. Right? Like, you have a probably 1 in 100% chance of being there for four years and having the student athlete experience it is that you're looking for because you just don't mesh personally. And that's. That's okay. You're going to find the right fit somewhere else. Yeah, but that character piece is so tough to parse out just by watching somebody play. Right. Like, I think that's something like, you know, we talk to our people all the time and we talk about it on this podcast. You know, a lot of the times when I was coaching, like, I did for. Unless I was working at camp, I never wore anything RPI or Sienna or West Alabama because I wanted to show up and, like, make sure that you were the person that you were going to be. If you didn't think I was there, I wouldn't even tell people I was going. Yeah, I would just show up and watch. Because I want to know, right? Like, if I tell you I'm coming, you're going to be on your best behavior. Yeah. I want to know, are you going to argue with the umpire about a called third strike and get thrown out of the game? Or, like, is. Is that just not part of what you. You know what I mean? Like, those types of things I, I kind of want to figure out because that might not work in my program for what it is that I'm looking to do.
[00:13:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I think the, the fit thing is you're 100, right? It's. It's if, if guy. If, if you could get. And this is never going to happen, but if you could get high school players to go into a recruiting, like, their, their cycle just looking for the right fit and not into like a sales mode, they would be way better off. They'd be way better off, and they would probably be surprised at what they find is the right fit for them. And that's, you know, obviously, baseball wise, they're a baseball player. But like, from, from culture to social at the school to financially, like all of it, they'll have a better experience. And so we always tell people we're just looking for good fits and not necessarily that means the best player. And you know, we, we actually had a great example of this. We had, we had a kid come to camp, middle infielder come to camp, and we offered him after the camp. He had a terrible camp in terrible camp. Like, not, he didn't hit, he didn't, you know, whatever.
But we had seen him for a while and we just liked the way he moved around. We liked the way, we liked his personality, we liked the way he played the game. We liked the way he did things and we liked him in between innings. You know, we liked, we liked all the little things he did right and he was always in the right spot. He was always talking and those sorts of things. And then we offer him and the dad just says the other shortstop at camp was way better than him. Like, what are you doing? And we were like, we just like that, that this was our guy. Like, we like, yeah, sure, the other kid had two hits and whatever, but it was like, no, we, we, we like, we think this is a great fit. And, and so I, I think the longer you do it, like you said, you, you want to be around people you enjoy, number one. Like, if I'm going to leave the house and spend long hours with these guys, I don't want to be around people that are making me miserable.
So, yeah, I think that the fit thing is 100% probably the biggest miss by a lot of people when they, when they go through this recruiting process, they just start, they start looking at shiny things. They start looking at like, notoriety and what's cool to post on the Internet or, you know, what's going to be fun for their, their family friends to hear about. But it's like you're, this is a real experience. You're going to grow up wherever you go. Like you're going to turn into a man wherever you end up. So find the right place that's a good fit and you're going to be able to do that, you know, not comfortably, but do it to the best of your ability there.
[00:16:23] Speaker A: I think it's such a dichotomy, right? Like you. Have you mentioned the sales, the salesy pitch?
The reality is when we're recruiting, like, we are generally being salesy like, we're trying to con. If we really like the kid. Like, we're trying to convince the kid that we want him to come be a part of our program because we think it's going to be a good fit.
And I think there's such a dichotomy around it because you're. You're going to get to campus and it's likely going to feel.
Not saying it's different, it's going to feel a little bit different when you get to campus than what it was in the recruiting process, because now you are going to be asked to actually do a lot of the things it is that we talked about in the recruiting process. And it's not going to be easy. It's going to be hard. You're going to have early mornings, you're going to have your struggles. You might struggle academically, you might struggle on the baseball field. There's going to be a lot of things that happen.
And I think sometimes kids look at it of like, this isn't what I was told. Like, yeah, we told you you were going to struggle. We told you this was going to be hard.
[00:17:30] Speaker B: I don't mean to cut you off. I would say, I think you would be wildly surprised at one of our recruiting visits because it's the complete opposite.
[00:17:42] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:17:43] Speaker B: And so what I'll tell you is people hear all the time when I. Recruiting visits, and Diggs always laughs about this, but it's very true.
They couldn't hear more that if you, if your goal is to play, if that's one of the things that are on the tip of your tongue, that you say where you want to go and you say, I want to play. He goes, don't come here because you're not going to play. It's not going to happen. Like, you're not going to come here and play, and it's going to be extremely difficult. And you're probably going to call home in the first two weeks and you're going to say, I don't think this is right.
Like, that's our, that's our recruiting business 90% of the time. And so we try to front load it as much as possible. This is gonna feel tough. You're gonna get drove in the ground.
Not, not in a mean way or anything. But baseball's tough, school's tough, social is tough. Everything's tough. Like you're, you're trying to grow up and you're gonna realize, like, guys are physically fit, guys are bigger, they're stronger, they're faster, they know More about the game. They know how to win better. Like it's really tough. And so I think, I would say people are probably more surprised than not on our recruiting visits that it seems to be more negative than salesy. And we always say our sell is, there is no sell. We're not going to sell you one iota. You come here, it's going to be an awesome experience. You have a chance to win championships, but it is miserably tough. Like the hours are long. There's no, you're not going to get gifted anything by professors because you're not there. And we're on the road traveling and baseball's tough. You're not going to get any of that treatment. It's just tough. And if you, if you want to check the box and like sign up for that, those are the guys that we want. Like, those are the guys that we want. So hopefully I don't think anybody's really surprised at it because they just get beat in the head with it on a recruiting visit.
That would be the one. Like, strange difference is that I've sat there on visits and I know like you, you being like an assistant for a while, you'll bring in some guy and you're like, this is a dude. Like we gotta have this guy. And then Deke sits in front of him and goes, you're not gonna play when you come here. This is not gonna happen. And the kid is like. And I'm like, shut up. He is.
So that happens quite a bit. Honestly,
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[00:21:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:32] Speaker A: And it sound, it sounds terrible to say, but the reality is that it's really, really hard to step foot on campus as a freshman and find success immediately in the fall. Not saying that you're not going to, like, you're not going to find success over the course of the fall and in the winter and then, you know, ultimately in the spring. But like, it's hard for all the things you just said. And I, like, I would have conversations with families in my office when they were thinking about rpi and I'm like, listen, you're going to get your ass kicked in the classroom. Like, there's no bones about it. You're going to get your ass kicked there.
I need you to love baseball and working hard so much that you want to show up and do the same thing, if not more on the baseball field and in the weight room, because that's what I'm going to be asking you to do.
And it wasn't, it wasn't because I didn't want, I, I wanted you to a know up front what this was. But also if that, if you're going to shy away from that to your guys point, like, it's probably not a guy that's going to end up working out well in my program anyways. That's right. And I think that there's like, you know, there's a fine line I think you walk as coaches where like, you're not, you know, I would consider myself to be somewhat of a player's coach, but like, I had high demands of like, this is what we're going to be doing day in and day out and these are, this is how we do things here. And these have to be met if we're going to succeed. And I think when you have to hold that standard to yourself and to your teammates, it becomes a little bit more difficult for younger kids. And that's where some of that self doubt and some of that, what am I doing here? This is not high school baseball. Like, no, it's not. Like one of my favorite, one of my favorite parts of the fall is when you have your freshman, one of your freshman arms on the bump who thinks he's really good and he throws his fastball over the middle of the plate and he just gets absolutely Molly walked for a home run. You're like, welcome, college. But we got to figure out how to pitch both sides of the plate here because can't leave that out over the middle against college guys. It's going to get hit.
And being able to have those teaching moments and getting like. We had a guy, he ended up being, I believe he ended up being an All American after I left. He was definitely an all region guy.
Ryan, he didn't have a hit the entire fall.
Not one.
Not in inner squads, not in coach pitch, not in anything. Didn't have one hit.
And one of our captains came over and he was like, why are you not changing him?
And, you know, I said to him, I said, you know, he, he needs to fail and decide that he needs to make the, like, the, the adjustments on his own. Because if I just tell him right away he's gonna be. And it doesn't work, it's gonna be like, what does this guy know? I'm not gonna listen to him. Like, sometimes you're gonna have to fail on your own to be like. And then he came in and fall was like, I need to make some serious adjustments. Like, yeah, you do. We didn't have one hit. You know, you're 6 foot 5 hitting like you're 5 foot 2. Like, that's not gonna work, dude. Like, yeah, sorry. I recruited you because you're huge and you generate that speed. Like, right, that's what I want to see. And you know, his freshman year end up being Covid, which was a nightmare obviously, but he ended up having a. He had a great career. But if you looked at it, you know, if you look at it from the, you know, 30,000 foot view of like, wow, man. Like multiple all league player, all region, possible all American, I think, you know, wow, what a great career. That kid must have been good when he set foot on campus. Like, dude, he didn't have a hit his freshman year in the fall. Not one. Not in an inner squad, not in a coach pitch, not nothing, not machine pitch, not one hit over the fall, literally zero hits. And then he ends up being that. But he put in the time, he put in the effort, he put in the work. He didn't get beat down by all of the negativity. Like, he went in. He was a tough kid, which is why, you know, part of the other reasons, you know what I mean? Like, he checked all of those character boxes to where I knew, okay, but knowing the kid, if I told him right away and it didn't work, it was, he was just going to go back to what he wanted to do. Whereas, hey, man, I'm. I'll let you go over the fall for 16 days. Like, I don't care. What is it all. It doesn't matter to me. We're not playing for another seven months anyways. Yeah.
You know, but I think that it's an interesting thing because I, I, Andy and I talk about it a lot on here. We talk about with our, our clients and stuff, too. Like, you have no concept as a high school senior what you're about to undertake to go play college. And I don't care what level it is. You have no idea what you're about to go through. And it's from a pitching perspective. And we'll probably hammer a little bit more pitching because you're the pitching guy. Like, you have no concept of what that looks like. Most guys are coming from, what, a maybe five arms on their high school team.
[00:26:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:23] Speaker A: You know, now you're, now you're on a staff with seven, you know, 14, 15, 16 guys.
[00:26:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:28] Speaker A: How do I become a piece of the puzzle with these 16 guys? We're going to be playing 40 games. We're going to be traveling, by the way, you still have to go to school, and you're like, you have to make up the work, otherwise you're going to get bad grades. And guess what happens when you get bad grades? You ain't traveling, you ain't playing. So you have to do all of these things while also trying to maintain some semblance of a social life.
All of those things happen. And it takes a while for guys to figure that stuff out. And I think that, you know, I think Dean's right. Like, it's not.
You're probably not gonna play, but it's not, it's not always the. I'm assuming, I'm not gonna, I'm, I'm guessing at this. Like, it's not always the talent that is not going to get you on. It's a lot of the other stuff that you have to figure out.
[00:27:11] Speaker B: I, I think, like, the funny part is, like, we have, we have piles of freshmen that play for us, but I think, I think, I think that that, like, statement, overarching, you know, the point of that is, is to like.
Like, that's one, that's not why you go somewhere, Right. Like, don't do that.
And two, it's like, what you don't want is, is just like that kid who doesn't get any hits or whatever. It's like you don't want someone to, to to go someplace and jump into this experience, and when it doesn't start to go well, think that it's all over because they freak out. Because that kid will freak out because he didn't get any hits in the fall. So he knows he's not going to play. And it's like, you were never going to play anyways. Just chill out. Like, just stick to the path, stay on the train, keep it moving forward. We will develop you. We'll help you get better. We'll explain what you need to do and whether or not you put in the work and you actually get better and you do make those adjustments, which sometimes are hard, and who knows? But, like, if you just stay on the path, like, this will all get better. Whether or not it starts well or not, who knows? Right when you have the. The. When you're running it through the filter of, like, I have to play, which is not in your control anyways. It's in your control as the head coach, then Deke's control, and when he makes the lineup card. So, like, you're. You're. You're focusing on stuff that doesn't even matter. Like, you have nothing to do with it. The only thing you have to do with is, like, come in, work really hard, be a good teammate, do all those things and just stay with the path. It'll take care of itself. Eventually, you'll get rewarded by the game at some point. Like, don't know if it'll be in your freshman year on weekend one, or, you know, we've had freshmen that, like, didn't pop up until the regional, and it's like, now they. All of a sudden they're in the lineup, and it's like, they worked and they got better. So, yeah, I think that that's the overarching part of that. But it's. It's. It's just tough. It's tough. I think so many people get misguided, and then they're unhappy for reasons why they shouldn't even be unhappy about. Like, like you said, this is really tough. The fact that the kid would come in and get no hits. I've seen. I've seen pitchers get bombarded with 50 eras in the fall. And they're really good. They're good. They just don't know how to do it yet.
[00:29:29] Speaker A: And that's part of. That's part of learning, right? Like, I think people. People want to view, like, especially families and high school students want to be like, well, I'm going to go there, and I'm going To play right away. Like let's back up. Like let's develop into what you need to be. To be a guy who's going to contribute to the team.
[00:29:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:46] Speaker A: Very rarely and I don't care the level. Are you going to watch freshmen walk in and be the quote unquote, Friday night guy. Yeah, it doesn't really happen a whole hell of a lot like, because you might see it in some places. Sure. But yeah, overall, like we're, we and Andy and I talk about this too. Like we're making the outliers the rule. Yeah, that's, that's not the case in the, in the vast. The overwhelming majority of college baseball. That's not the rule. Yeah, you're gonna have to develop. You're gonna have to figure out how to get college guys out. You're gonna have. There's a lot of things you have to do in order to be able to find your success at the collegiate level.
[00:30:22] Speaker B: Yeah, most people just don't know what they don't know. So it's.
[00:30:26] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean there's a lot I don't know like parenting when you got, when you're on the road looking or you know, on the road or talking about guys that you're looking to bring in. From a pitching perspective, what are some of the things that you value as the pitching guy?
[00:30:42] Speaker B: I think a love for the strike zones, number one.
And, and so I expand on that.
Like the high school zone, the college zone are completely different and so most guys don't understand that initially. So they like you can get high school stats and the guy is a 5 walk per 9 inning type of guy, numbers wise. And it's like you're a nine walk per inning guy or nine walk per nine in a college zone because the zone is legitimately smaller. They don't go chalk to chalk and sometimes they do, of course, you know, in, in random spots, but the zone is legitimately smaller. And then hitters don't chase as much. So especially with, with like high school stuff, they're not going to chase it. So where high school kidders hitters, you're going to face, you know, two good hitters in the lineup and now you're going to face six out of nine that are going to be really good hitters and the other three are still probably as good as the other two on that high school team you're facing. So now you're just facing tougher hitters consistently.
And so I think I love for the strike zone for sure if we, we, you know, Our line is you got to beat them over the white and if you can't beat them over the white, then we got to get better.
So we're not trying to throw chalk pitches and get people to chase all the time. You're trying to command the strike zone and, and win over the white. And then the other one. Sorry.
So then the, the other, the other things there are.
For me it's a feel for the baseball and that sounds weird, but for me, like I don't mind guys having misses. When I see him pitch, I just want the miss to be somewhat consistent. So like if a guy's armside high all the time and that's cool, that's fine, that's just a little visual change and we can make that work. But my problem is a guy with like a four way miss like me when I'm golfing, like cut it and draw it and do whatever. You can't play that way. Like if you have a one way miss, you can play all day. You just need to make an actual adjustment and we can work with that. So it's that and then you know, you're looking for a guy with some type of outlier, something, you know, outside that. So if he throws strikes, he's got, he's got an ability to feel some comfort for the ball and know what he's doing. So if he says I'm throwing a two seamer, he doesn't cut it and, and those sorts of things.
Because now when you put him on trackman you can build out a repertoire and he's got feel to make some changes and move the ball.
But have a special something.
You know, you have to have a special. So it's a change up, it's a slider, it's something that he does that seems a little bit above board. You're right. Like maybe it's his fastball and he throws the both sides of the plate and he's got really good command of it. That's a special.
And then you can build off of that to get some value. Because initially when those young guys come in, you're looking for that to feed on that one special thing while you try to build them out.
And if they don't have a special, there's not much to kind of lean on early on in their career. But if we can, if we can get that early and it's like, okay, this guy is this type of guy, he's got this and then we'll lean into that. So I would say those are the three things.
[00:34:06] Speaker A: I think the, the strike zone piece is huge, especially in college. You know, there's, it is tighter, you're facing better hitters. You have to somehow figure out a way to be able to either a get swinging misses or, or force weak contact.
I think the other thing that is, I think it's something that we all knew prior to Trackman. I don't want to say to this degree, obviously, because we're not robots in our heads, but I think Trackman and Rapsodo and things like that have kind of validated some of the things we thought about from a recruiting perspective when we saw guys throw. Whereas, like, yo, I think that slider is a, like, that might be a little bit of an outlier pitch. Like, it, it is swing and miss. Like, he's consistent with it. He can backdoor it, he can front door, whatever it is, right where now we can put it on Trackman and be like, okay, yeah, no, that's, that is exactly what I thought it was.
Maybe more, maybe a little bit less, but there's. It validates what it is that you're seeing with your eyes.
And I think that it's, it's key for people to also understand that from a metric perspective, it's not necessarily something that is going to ultimately always get you recruited.
[00:35:18] Speaker B: Right.
[00:35:18] Speaker A: Like, it's something that is a foot in the door.
Hey, I can do this.
And okay, you have a really good slider, but you throw 66 miles an hour for a fastball. Like, probably not going to be recruitable at the college level or yeah, maybe you're just going to come in and spin sliders 100% of the time. I don't know.
You know, but it's something that, you know, I think people have fallen in love with metrics on the outside a little bit more than, than those of us on the inside. While we appreciate them and value them, I think we view them through a far different lens than what the regular Joe Blow does from a baseball perspective.
But I think that it's, it's interesting with, with where we've gone and the amount of, you know, even Division 3 schools that have Trackman and are using these things to be able to develop players by using that as a tool to kind of say, like, hey, this is what we like, here's what you do well, and here's what we can do in order to build our repertoire out a little, a little bit more to make you even better from this perspective.
[00:36:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it's, it's, it's. I, I would say the, the best thing about it is it's shortened the feedback loop of like trying to help players like fix stuff. That, that's without a doubt. I think in the recruiting process, like, it's, it's great because there's, there's certain things that you can that are undeniable. Like the guy leveraged a breaking ball at, you know, high 2000s spin rate. That's going to play. It's just going to play. I don't know.
Now like you said, it's not the end all be all because if you go watch the guy pitch and this is, you know, how our fall ball kind of rolls with pitchers. It's funny. Like you, you have a guy with that and then he's a 16 to the plate and, and he can't pick and, and then it's a track meet and you're like, hey man, you still, you're not any closer to pitching for us than you were, you know, a week ago.
And it has nothing to do with that slider. The slider's good, but, you know, so I think it's not the end all be all for sure.
It's just certain things now are kind of undeniable. It's like if certain pitches are at a certain level, certain shape, spin rate, release, height, extension, and we can figure this out. But I think so many people like lean into that as the end all be all. And for us it's like the trackman's rarely out for us in the spring, just rarely is. Like we had it out today for a little touch and feel for a guy and trying to make sure certain things were right, but it's rarely out in the fall it's out.
We get pitcher and hitter information off of it because in the fall we do a lot of observation and we try to give a guy a plan for the future.
But in the springtime it's like, hey, you have to be able to pitch. We have to be able to manage counts and hold a running game and figure that out. We have to be able to play the game. So now if a guy has some certain one off things that are happening where it's, you know, his fastball is getting hit and it shouldn't, then we're going to go to the trackman and try to figure it out. And that's, it's a helpful tool because like you said, sometimes with your eyes, like, just like you knew if a guy was getting barreled like that pitch isn't good, sometimes that thing can help you because it can Again, shorten that feedback loop. It doesn't take two weeks now. Maybe it can take two or three days to fix a guy's two scene profile or something you were struggling with.
[00:38:46] Speaker A: I think the interesting thing you beat me to it is the fact that as you talk metrics and all this stuff, like you still have to play the game. Yeah. And I think that gets lost on a lot of people when you start talking about exit velos and how hard you throw and your slider and all this. Like, it's all great, it really is.
But you know, Billy said this on our podcast. You know, I don't know what a great exit velo is. Like, we don't play in a circus.
You're hitting a moving baseball, not a ball that's just sitting on a tee that you're trying to generate as much pop as you possibly can.
And I think it's interesting, especially with pitchers because I mean, positionally we can go down a rabbit hole. But I think with pitchers, a lot of people, especially in the college game, don't necessarily realize that there's a lot of other things you have to do than, rather than just pitch right, like, yeah, you can be good in the zone, you do this stuff, but you hit it on the head. If you're a 1617 and you can't field your position, it's going to be really hard to get innings at the collegiate level because you're, it's going to be a track meet once someone gets on first base or second base. And if you can't feel their position, people actually still do bunt in this game. Contrary to what a lot of social media will tell you, if you're just going to throw it away, we're just going to keep doing it until you prove that you can continually get us out.
And it sounds, it sounds insane when I say it, but I've seen it multiple times where, and I think the flip side to it too, like, especially if you're going to be a reliever, if you're pitching in which if you're going to be one of the guys who's going to come out of one of the first two arms out, you're going to be pitching in tight games.
You know, at least when I was still coaching three years ago, you know, 50% of our games, and it's pretty much holds true across college baseball are one run games. You're going to find yourself in a lot of tight games.
And if you can't field your position late in a game, they can't really throw you out there.
[00:40:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:48] Speaker A: And if you can't control the run game once someone gets on base and you're going to be a 1 6, 17 again, you can't really be out there because you're giving nobody an opportunity to throw that runner out.
[00:40:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:59] Speaker A: The catcher is no shot.
[00:41:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:01] Speaker A: You know, what are we to. You're going to be. Even if he's a 2 0, it's a 37 a second base. If you're a 1 7. Yeah.
There's a lot of bases that are going to be stolen. All of a sudden someone's in scoring position. All you need is a single and the game's, you know, you're tired or the game's over, you know. And I think a lot of people don't understand that aspect of the, of what it actually takes to be a pitcher at the collegiate level. That that stuff legitimately does matter. You have to be able to pick, you have to be able to control runners, you have to field your position.
All of those things matter at a super high rate.
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[00:42:14] Speaker B: so for us we try to look at it as like the three systems and you're trying to decrease stress from one of those three systems. So for us, if you're a pitcher, you're trying to take stress off of the defensive system and your offensive system. So how can you do that? And that's it's thinking about in those frames I think helps guys sometimes because then you then you start to look at like okay, time of possession innings. Like if our offense scores some runs, get on the mound quickly, throw your warm up pitches quickly, get after the first hitter, get back into the dugout. That way we don't have our defense sitting on the field for a long time and our offensive players not playing a long time. And then again if you're, if you walk people, you stress your defensive system. If you hit people, you stress your defensive system. You can't Feel the bunt. That's your stress on the defensive system. So those are all ways for us that we're trying to preach, like, get the ball through the plate, work quickly, do all the things that we're talking about, and maybe not frame it in just a.
Stop throwing balls and stop hitting people. It's just like, think about your teammates a little bit.
And sometimes that framework helps guys at least get through the zone more, be more aggressive, work quicker, do the things that we're not talking about that have anything to do with metrics. It's just like you're a part of a team when you're a pitcher, and you have to view yourself as that. And, and otherwise, you just stand out there and it is like a carnival. You're just trying to chuck it towards the plate and throw the best metrics up. And it's like, it doesn't. Game doesn't work that way.
[00:43:45] Speaker A: No.
You mean yelling, throw more strikes doesn't. Doesn't get guys to reset. Yeah, sure, throw more strikes, stay over the rubber.
But no, it's. It's interesting to me. Like, the, the older I get, and not to sound like an old head like it, but it's.
I felt like the more, the more guys you had to teach how to play the game as they got to you when they were younger.
And it's not a negative. Like, I'm not, I'm not saying it as a negative. I just felt like the older I got in coaching, the more I felt like the, the newer class came in having less of a feel for how to play the game.
Like that was going to win you baseball games. Yep. And it's. I don't know the answer to it, but I, I just, I felt that way as I was getting older.
[00:44:37] Speaker B: I think you're spot on, man. It's.
It's the way that the game has grown and it's. And again, like you said, it's not a negative because you know this also. It's. The more you got way more guys that had a better understanding of, like, mechanics, a better understanding of arm care, a better understanding of metrics, they could tell you what they needed to be on trackman to be good. They. They knew, like, I had.
I didn't know what arm care was.
[00:45:08] Speaker A: I was just gonna say there was no arm care. When you and I were in college,
[00:45:12] Speaker B: I didn't have mechanics. I didn't know what those were. I didn't have a pitching coach, so.
And so now you. You get a ton of guys that are advanced in certain parts of the game. And that's why for us, when we play football, we play every single day. Like we, our pitchers are divided up. We come out Tuesday, we play, we come out Thursday, we play, we come out Saturday, we play. And you just keeps a revolving door. We play every day because we feel like we can teach more through the game. Now, you know, they know how to, how to spin a ball and maybe do that and generate bat speed or an exit vlo. But like what happens when there's a runner on second, you got to move them over and you need to change your approach and you need to look for something else or the infield gets drawn in. Like, what do you do? What are you looking for?
And same thing with pitchers. You know, it's again, like I said, the first day of fall ball this year was we put runners on first and we told them they had two pitches to steal. They got steal and we had our catchers. We're throwing, we're, we're getting video, we're doing pop times for our catchers. And the amount of like clean stolen bases on, on young guys is just incredible. They can't hold a running game. They have no ability how to, how to vary holds and looks and everything else. They can't pick over very well.
They're uncomfortable and now they start throwing balls and now they say it's, it's our fault because we're stressing them out that they can't throw strikes. And I'm like, this is the game, man. The game is stressing you out. So like this is what it feels like. So I think like those sorts of things, like learning through the game and how it's played and when pressure starts to pop up and anxiety gets high and, and guys struggle, those sorts of things. But I think that's where the game has evolved. And so training the same way you used to train and go take BP and go in a cage and do drill work and things like that guys do. That's all they do. That's all they do. They go in cage, they take drill work and they do that. But it's like they don't, they don't know how to change an approach in a game and they don't know how to play defense in a system and, and they also don't know how to pitch whenever the game kind of pushes them a little bit.
[00:47:22] Speaker A: So yeah, I think it's interesting because you have, I mean you hit on a lot of things, but, but when I was at like when I took over at rpi, we played whether it was coach, pitch or inter squad every day.
[00:47:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:35] Speaker A: Because for that reason I felt like I could coach better given the situations and stuff. And the reality is in this game, it's, it's, it's hard to cover every single situation. You're always going to see, no doubt, like you're, you do this long enough, you're going to see something new on a baseball field almost every time you play.
[00:47:54] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:47:55] Speaker A: But you can put yourself in situations where you can talk about those things. And hey, if we're in this spot, you know, and you know, I would tell our guy, we would, you know, we would work double cuts. At RPI, it was, it was like 295 down the right field line. So, you know, we would have conversation like, listen, our shortstop would be like, where do I need to be? I'm like here at home. I just need you floating. If we can't make a 295 foot throw with our right fielder and our second baseman to the plate, then I have bigger issues.
[00:48:23] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:48:24] Speaker A: Now if we're somewhere else and it's 335, 340, I need you behind, you know, trailing the second baseman to be our double cut there. But you know, situate like, but those are things that pop up that, you know, you can't necessarily, you can't just talk about it during the course of a practice. It's something that has to happen and then be like, hey, what do I do here? Because I'm standing on first base, our first baseman's right behind me. We have seven people over here and no one over there. This seems not smart. Yeah, you're right. So here we're going to do this.
But it, it, it's, you know, it's interesting because it's the, the game at the collegiate level speeds up so fast on younger players. And I mean, shoot, I remember when I was playing, I remember my first couple inner squads. It was, I was a catcher, it was so fast for me. I was like, we have pitches being delivered every like 13 seconds. I gotta get signs, I gotta relay them. I gotta know what the system is with a run around second. Like what? My head was spinning and eventually like you start to grasp it and it gets a hell of a lot slower for you. Like you always hear the term slow the game down for yourself. Like it, you can really work fast under some of those, under that pressure. Once you kind of start understanding what everything is.
And it's, it's, you know, the, the pitching stuff to Me was just always we would do similar stuff. Like, hey, just go like you have two within the first two or three pitches, you got to be gone. Let's see what happens. And the older guys would, you know, and then you'd have to say, hey, you like talk about it. But also be like, hey, watch him. He's a senior. He's pitch on the weekends for three straight years. Watch how he varies his holds, he varies his looks. If you notice he has two different pickoffs that he moves over there. There's a lot of different things that he's doing in order to make sure that he's slowing the game down for himself while controlling the running game while also being able to throw strikes. Yeah, well, how do I do that? Like, it's not going to happen overnight. These are things that we have to continually work on, you know. And then I think the one thing that always drove me nuts as I got older in my career was the, the catchers, when they get to you from a high school standpoint, like they don't know how to run the basis because they never run the basics in high school. Yeah, like, it's always like courtesy runner for the catcher or like speed the game up and get the catcher and then they get the first. You're like, you're like, you know, you go around the bases. Hey, we're going to take a lead here. Take your lead. They take like a one foot lead. You're like, what are you doing? Yeah, it's like, I don't know, man. I never ran. I haven't run the bases since I was like 14. Yeah. It's like, okay, like here is the most basic thing that we have to teach.
Here we go. And again, it's not a negative. It's what they're doing at the lower levels.
But like it was like, damn, man, like, you've never run the bases. Yeah. Do you know how to go first to third? Like, can we just start there?
[00:51:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:51:19] Speaker A: No. Okay. What, what do you know? What do you do first? I get the signs from the first base coach. Okay, then. Or from the third base coach. Okay, then what do you do? I take my lead wrong. I have no idea what I'm supposed to do. Like, can you check your outfielders? Why do I look at them? Yeah, we have to know depth of the outfielders. We have to know where they're playing. If the balls hit behind you down the line. This is in high school. He's not going to be standing on the line. I don't need you in your secondary.
Yeah. You know, but it is like the game, the game still has to be played. And I think that it's, it's something that we've, I don't want to say we've gotten away from because I don't think we have. But I think like we've, we've put more emphasis on some of the other stuff that is not game related.
And then when we get into the game stuff we struggle for, for younger players, we struggle and then it's like it's the first time they've really struggled. And I don't think that part has changed. You know what I mean? Like, freshmen have always struggled playing college baseball.
[00:52:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:52:23] Speaker A: It's not anything new. I just think that it's, it's taking a little bit longer to get them up to, up to speed with what we, from what it was. And maybe I, maybe I have rose colored glasses from when we played.
[00:52:35] Speaker B: No, I, I think it's, I think it's accurate, I would say. I think, I just think the, the, like the quality of athlete and player that come to college is better now than it was. It just is. Like they, they know more, they, they, they work out more, they, they're stronger, their, their arms are stronger.
Like the quality of athlete is better.
But the inability to like, you know, guys don't play Wiffle ball as much as they used to. They don't play backyard tennis ball as much as they used to. So like to be in a game and, and to have that, that ability to, to game up and play and are like, we always tell our guys like, well, you know, you need to change situational scrimmages. You change the points and the way things are awarded or live at bats and the way things are awarded. And it's like, it's a game. Just play to win the game. Like, I don't. If the game says you get a point if you swing at a strike and you keep taking it because it's not where you want to swing. It's like you're not playing to win the game that we're playing today. It's like play to win the game you're playing today. Like, and so that is missing a little bit. And so we just try to feed that as much as you can. It's like get, get. Create competitive environments. Get a good environment that is trying to basically bring out the skills that you want the players to have at the end of it and then roll the bats out and play and just go, was it good or was it Bad or did you do well or
[00:54:08] Speaker A: did it work or did it not work? If it didn't work, let's, we'll, we'll do something different.
[00:54:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Don't overcoach it and don't, like, try to micromanage it. It's just like, create a good environment and roll it out and see how it goes.
[00:54:20] Speaker A: I think you're dead right. The athlete is better. The physicality in college baseball is way more than what it was when, you know, you and I played. Yep, you know it.
And I, I'm a. I, I played it to 15. I'm six two. Like, I was rather big in college. Like, I'm as average as average gets now at the collegiate level. Like, and that's, it's not over the grand scheme of things. It's not that long ago. Right. Like, I, I played less than 20 years ago, so it's not like that long ago, you know, but like, it's, it's gotten better. And I think from a compete standpoint, like, that was one thing that we always try to do is just come up with, you know, for lack of a better term, like stupid competition things that we could do just to get them to compete.
You're dead right. No one plays. I don't want to say no one plays with football, but a lot of people don't play with, well, like, playing it. We invented a game in high school. I'll never forget this. Remember those?
They still have like, those reaction balls. They have like, those, like, the nipples on them. Like, we created a game in high school where like, you, you, you played in the volleyball court and you had to roll it at each other. And if you got it past them, it was a point. If you, you like. And you played to like 10, but you people just dove all over the place trying to stop the ball because you don't know where it's going to bounce.
[00:55:38] Speaker B: Right.
[00:55:39] Speaker A: In any, any way outside of the. Your square got you a point. So, like, it could bounce in and right out you get a point. Like, people are just diving everywhere. But it was, it was more so just the. You wanted to compete in something and go about it that way. And, you know, I don't know. I think that we were, I was, I'm uber competitive, much like you are. So it's, you know, I'll compete in any. If you want to play Scrabble, like, I'm probably going to talk smack the entire time and.
[00:56:08] Speaker B: Right.
[00:56:08] Speaker A: Try to win, like, that's just what it is.
But I think that that like, that lacks a little bit. And I think there is something to be said about like the travel summer ball and you know, that's, you know, I think it's, again, it's not a negative. Like, no. Up in an era where you, you had the Legion gate. Like, we didn't like Legion wasn't really a thing in New York, but I played with the South Troy Dodgers. Like, people showed up and watched us play the team, Connecticut baseball and the Bayside Yankees and Brooklyn Youth Service. Like, but that doesn't happen anymore.
You don't have the money to go watch and sit on these games and watch these, like, go watch two games, a double header where you might get one kid off the field that could potentially get into your school, or you could go to domination and there's a hundred thousand people that you can go see. And you know, it's more cost effective.
[00:57:01] Speaker B: I, and I think, like, to what we were saying, I think the, the game is sort of tailored, guys. I, I think, I think kids are competitive, but they, they're competing at what they. The game has designed them to compete at, which is like, put up a good metric, put up a good stat sheet, like those sorts of things. So it, you know, people don't play with like a hometown team and try to win like a league championship with their hometown team. So you don't, you just don't have that anymore. So like, that's something that you have to like, get them to buy into and create early on is like, hey, look. And for us, we always say, like, the fall, the fall is, is for us to kind of observe and see who you are. And when we get to the spring, it's not about you anymore, it's about us. So like, if. Whatever that means, like, we're not focused on you getting yours. It's like we're trying to win as a group. So the, the group, you know, the star always shines around, it rotates around and hits different guys at different times of the year. But it's not about any one guy. But I think, I think the game is just kind of designed around guys competing for a different thing. They're not competing to win, they're competing to put up a good number.
And so I think you just, you know, the tough part is trying to bring that out in, in recruits once they get on campus. It's like trying to bring it out in them in a different light. Like now we're not trying to. I don't care if you hit 92 in the game or you hit 88 in the game. Like, we're trying to win the game. So, like, just because your V is not exactly where you want it to be today, I don't really give a. I. I just need you to compete and pitch and get outs and, and hold runners and do those things. So, yeah, it's just a different type of compete.
[00:58:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's one of those things, especially in our game, you don't, you never know what's going to win or lose you the game.
You don't know that the air in the fifth ends up costing you the one run that puts them ahead and then you don't score the rest of the game. Or, you know, the diving play that your shortstop saves a ball or, you know, saves two runs on and keeps the ball in the infield and you get a huge punch out or a pop up and a punch out and all of a sudden you're out of the inning.
It's weird that way, which I like. One of the main, like, I love baseball for that reason. There's a lot of different reasons, but sure, it's one of those things, like over the course of nine innings, you never really know what it is. And it's that, that compete factor for nine innings of, hey, this is what we need to do in order to win. I don't care. I was actually talking to a coach this morning. I was like, yeah, you won one. Nothing. Like, pretty good. He's like, ah, three hits, one run. I was like, they don't count them. Doesn't matter how you got it.
What matters is you scored more runs than the other team. That's right. You won. So it doesn't. Like I used to tell my guy, I'm like, I don't care if we get no hit and reach on air nine times to get walked nine times and score 10 runs.
[00:59:52] Speaker B: Right?
[00:59:52] Speaker A: Doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is whether or not we win or lose. That's right. Ultimately what matters because we are still playing a game.
[01:00:00] Speaker B: That's right.
[01:00:00] Speaker A: We still want to win. So how we get there, I don't know. I just want to make sure that we're competing for the nine. And how we do it doesn't matter to me that we've spent about an hour. I don't want to, I don't want to keep you any longer than I have.
Last question. We always ask everybody, what advice would you offer families in the recruiting process if they're going through it right now?
[01:00:27] Speaker B: Good luck. No kidding.
[01:00:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:00:31] Speaker B: No, I, you Know, I think we met, we hit on this earlier. I, I think, I think, like, figure out what, Figure out exactly what you're looking for and find the right fit and, and don't sell yourself short on, like, going out and watching games. I think the more I've talked to families, they haven't seen any games, you know, regardless of level, but, like, they just don't go watch a college baseball game. And there's. They're. They're happening all the time. Their way, you know, the schedule is, Is pretty long. So go watch a D2 game, go watch a Division 1 game, then go watch a good D3 game, a juco game, whatever. Just go see what, you know, good teams look like. And then if you actually have a list of schools that you're interested in, like, try to go watch them or at least watch them online and see how those teams interact with each other and what the culture looks like. Because the culture will come out like you, you know, if you, if you watch a game, you watch the dugout and you see how the dugout acts.
Because every, every team has a different culture and they have a different makeup. They're usually fit. The head coach.
And so, and I think it's important, like, you don't want to be a kid who came from a, let's say, a militaristic high school setting where the coach is like, wear your pants this way, wear your hat this way, get your hair cut. And then you go to this, like, completely bonkers college experience where, you know, and some. There's really good teams that have that type of culture, but you're probably not going to, like, you're not going to enjoy it and you're not going to fit in really well. So I think watching teams and because you're going to spend the, like you said earlier when we were talking about getting players, that you're going to spend the majority of your time around that team. Like, that's going to be. The majority of your college experience is going to be around those guys. And so you want to make sure that the fit is right.
And if the fit's right, anything can happen. You work hard, you know, you get in the right, you know, frame of mind, and you go about your business, you can make it work and you can get better and you can play and you can either be, you know, all American, you can be a role player, doesn't matter, but you have a good experience.
And so I think that's, that's what I would say if you're a Family like do your due diligence. Not just in the. Check the price tag and check the school and make sure it's good enough to tell your friends about it, but make sure that that experience is going to be good and a good fit for the player. And that's, I think the, the, the key to this thing finding, finding a good fit. Because I've seen, you know, kids that it's a good fit and they come in and they're not a really skilled player and they've excelled and they've become a lot better.
And I've seen kids that do that and aren't an all American and they're just a role player, but their experience is amazing because they're in the right program, they're in the right fit for them. They get good grades because they're happy and work. So that's, that's my advice. Find a great fit.
[01:03:37] Speaker A: I think it's great. I think the other thing that we hammer to on this podcast is to watch college baseball. Yeah, I mean we're, we're sick about it, but there's a lot of truth to it. I mean, especially in Ohio. Like I personally think, and you could tell me if I'm wrong, I think Ohio is a super underrated baseball state.
When talked about baseball states overall, because I feel like every event I went there recruiting wise, there were just dudes everywhere.
But there's, there's so much good baseball being played at all levels in Ohio that I can probably imagine you could throw a dart at the map and it's not that far of a drive to go watch some good baseball being played.
[01:04:20] Speaker B: Not at all. No. You're, you're D2. You're talking like Ohio, Dominican, Walsh, Ashland, Finley. You have some good D2s. D3, it's crazy. From Marietta, Baldwin, Wallace, Mount Union, Worcester, US Heidelberg, Wittenberg's been fantastic.
And then D1s. You know, you get your spattering at Ohio State and Cincinnati and Xavier and you get the good max schools, you know, Kent State, Toledo, Bowling Green's been great last couple of years. So yeah, from whatever level, Sinclair juco used to be awesome. Now you still have Tri C, which is a good juco.
So there's some decent juco too. But yeah, it's, it's crazy. Just like you said, if you throw a needle on the map, within an hour, you're probably could find a pretty solid baseball game to watch.
[01:05:10] Speaker A: Yeah, but, and I think it's, it's worth it if you want to go play. I don't even know if I would say it's worth it. I think it's necessary if you're going to. If you aspire to go play in college, you have to go watch some semblance of it.
[01:05:23] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:05:23] Speaker A: Like, you can't just be like, well, this is what I want to do, and then have no idea what you're going to get yourself into.
[01:05:29] Speaker B: I mean, I.
[01:05:30] Speaker A: If you go buy a car, you test drive it, at the very least, you should show up and watch what this team looks like. What this program looks like is like, is this left? Does this level fit me? Do I think I could actually play here? Go see how physical they are, how fast it is, how these guys move. Like, I think you're going to be blown away in most cases.
[01:05:48] Speaker B: I. I grew up right on the Marietta river or on the Ohio river, sorry, next to Marietta, and my dad used to take me down and watch Marietta College play. It was only, like, 35 minutes from our house.
And. And so that was when Don Shali was there. They had it going. And. And I won't date Deeks, but that's back when he was playing, when I was a young guy. And so my dad would take me down there and he would tell me about Marriott College and this and that, but I used to. That. That was the games. That was the closest college to us, and that was the games I would go watch. I thought those guys were pros, like, the way they. The way they play the game and how good they were, you know? So when I got recruited in college, I was down to, like, between, like, four or five max schools and Marietta, and. And it was a legitimate choice. It wasn't, like, an easy decision. It was a hard decision because I respected how good Marietta College was. Right? So for me, it's like, Yeah, I think. I think when you watch teams play, just like you said, you gain a different level of respect of not just saying, like, it's one, it's two, it's three, it's. There's. There's really, really talented players at all those levels. And depending on the program, you can go watch teams play, and you're like, wow, these guys are unbelievable.
But, yeah, I think the other thing.
[01:07:10] Speaker A: I'll pull the thread for a second. At the back end of this league.
The upper levels of Division 2 and 3 are not as far off from the lower levels of Division one or even majors of Division one that people think of.
[01:07:24] Speaker B: Not at all. No. I mean, our three. Our three guys that left in the portal last year Duke, Tulane and Pitt and got good money and they're are pitching well at those three places and we just had to. Or we have a grad guy that's going to Virginia next year.
And so it's, it's the, the levels. Aren't that. That split? No, they're not split. There's a lot of overlap. And, and look, I, I understand depth and I. As a guy who coached Division 1 baseball and you as well as like, you. You understand like the upper levels are the upper levels and there's. There's a. There's just a lot of.
[01:08:00] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:08:00] Speaker B: A lot of levels and, and gravity to that situation.
But yeah, there's. There's players on a lot of those fields that can play at levels above where they're playing.
[01:08:11] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean we. My last year I had two guys transfer out. One went to San Francisco, pitch for Eric. One pitch at Delaware. Another guy was a senior sign.
Yeah.
And I think honestly I. And you probably feel the same way about this. Like, think about how many guys we coach at the Division 3 level pre Covid and transfer portal era that probably would have jumped in and been gone.
[01:08:37] Speaker B: Sure.
[01:08:38] Speaker A: Because I. You can if you go. I mean, shoot. Joe Rayna was on our podcast and I talked to Joe quite a bit. I mean he had Nolan Sparks at his program when he was 94 to 96 against us in the conference like with a wipeout slider and got popped in the 12th round.
[01:08:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:08:55] Speaker A: Like that dude was walking around for four years on U of R's campus. Now he was a double major in like a neuroscience. He was like a. He wanted to be a neuroscientist test.
[01:09:05] Speaker B: It's the right fit for him.
[01:09:06] Speaker A: Perfect fit for him. But like, you know those dudes are walking around. I mean. And he's not the only guy that I've seen in. At Division 3 baseball that was in the mid upper 90s. Yeah, there was another Johnny Branch I think was his name out of RIT who we didn't play him for like three years and all of a sudden he showed up on our campus and was like 93 to 95. And I was like, where did this guy come from? No, he's a senior. He's been here. You know, Coach Crow is like, he's been here the whole time. I was like played in three years.
[01:09:36] Speaker B: The.
[01:09:37] Speaker A: The stock of these guys back there.
[01:09:39] Speaker B: The Lotus Kid from. From Wash U was I think it was like 2018 regional. He was on like two days rest and now I think he pitched for the Cardinals. Now I can't remember exactly where he is. He's in the big leagues and they had Caleb Durbin was their shortstop by the way.
It was a fun regional and he was their shortstop and then Lotus was, was their number one. And, and he was like 93 to 96 or something like that. And then maybe touched the 97 or something. And, and I remember we got him on like 2 days rest in the regional final and I told Diggs he was warming up and I was like, he's on two days rest, he's probably going to be like one to three or something. His first warm up pitch was like 94. And I was like, we are toast. This is, we have no chance.
Yeah. So, I mean there's, there's some really special, really special players playing.
[01:10:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:10:30] Speaker B: All those levels. Doesn't matter.
[01:10:31] Speaker A: My point in all of it, and our point, I should say in all of it is go watch college baseball and understand that the, the levels are not nearly as cut and dry from a 1, 2, 3 standpoint as, as what you're led to believe at most of your life.
Well, Ryan, I, I appreciate you joining us tonight. I had a blast doing this.
Good luck the rest of the way. I know you guys, Stoke conference tournament this weekend. We'll be watching from afar and I'm rooting for you guys this year, I hope.
[01:11:01] Speaker B: Thanks man.
[01:11:01] Speaker A: Hope you knock it dead.
[01:11:03] Speaker B: Thanks man. I appreciate it. Thanks for your time.
[01:11:05] Speaker A: No problem. Thanks everybody for listening. Talk to you next week.
Thank you for listening this week. If you're watching on YouTube, go ahead and hit that subscribe button and smash that like button for us. Check us out on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts as well as Spotify. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram MDBaseball. If you want to find out what me and Keith do to help families and players navigate the recruiting process, go ahead and check us out on emdbaseball.com take a few minutes to check out our new online academy. I promise you'll get some good information out of that. Thanks again for listening. Check in with you next week.
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