Episode 141: Interview with former MLB Player: Erik Kratz

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hey, parents and coaches, are your kids using the right glove? The most important skill for youth athletes to learn is how to play proper catch. The problem is most youth gloves are made with bad leather and are too big for small hands. They actually make it harder to play catch. That's why former Major League Baseball shortstop Kevin Smith created Cali Gloves. Cali gloves are crafted from 100% Japanese kip leather and are the perfect size for kids. All Cali gloves come with palm slits, finger loops and elastic wrist lacing that encourage proper hand placement. The right closing patterns and give kids more confidence to go make plays. Cali Gloves even allow parents to break in the glove without stretching out the fit. It's the glove Kevin wishes he had growing up and the glove all his teammates want for their kids. Visit cali gloves.com to learn more and help your kids play better catch. That's Cali Gloves. K a l I gloves.com. [00:01:12] Speaker B: Welcome to this week's edition of the Dugout Dish podcast. I'm Andy Kirikidis, joined by my Wonderful co host, Mr. Keith Glasser. How we doing? [00:01:20] Speaker A: Great. How are you? [00:01:21] Speaker B: Got another quad box today. [00:01:22] Speaker A: Joined by quad box. Second week in a row of the quad box. [00:01:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:01:26] Speaker B: Got the familiar voice, the soothing tones of Mr. Jonathan Grasse. How we doing? [00:01:32] Speaker A: Great. [00:01:32] Speaker D: How are you guys? [00:01:34] Speaker C: Good. [00:01:34] Speaker B: And we have another special guest on this week. I'm gonna give him a brief intro here. He's an 11 year big leaguer, played parts of 11 years with the Pirates, the Phillies, the Blue Jays, the Royals, the Astros, the Yankees, the brewers, the Giants and the Rays. He's a graduate of Eastern Mennonite University, Harrisonburg, Virginia, place that I'm very familiar with. He was a 29th pick, 29th round pick coming out of that university and he's currently, amongst other things, the co host of the Foul Territory podcast that you can find on YouTube. If you haven't listened to it, you absolutely should. But we're pretty fired up to have Mr. Eric Kratz on today. Thanks for joining us Eric. [00:02:16] Speaker C: Thanks for having me on. And you forgot one team. Now you have to decide is how we're going to start it out. Right away, the Red Sox. I was a Red Sox for two days. The third day I ate breakfast there and then they fired me. But I didn't get in a game. I got called, I was going to pinch hit for Sandy Leone and then they said, nah, ground ball, don't play. Sandy hit for himself. One and a half days later I was finishing my my breakfast and my morning Lift. And they said, Manny. No, not. Yeah, Manny Ramirez. No, not Manny Ramirez. Hanley Ramirez. Hanley Ramirez can't go. We're going to need to bring somebody up in your place. So I don't know how me, how Hanley getting hurt and me getting sent down correlated, but I got put back and sent down to the bushes. And so that was one of my stops. [00:03:10] Speaker B: Okay. All right. Oversight on my part. The more, you know, as a Red. [00:03:15] Speaker A: Sox fan, too, Andy, that's. [00:03:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I should have known that. I should have known that as a. [00:03:18] Speaker C: Red Sox fan, I never played, so you wouldn't know. You wouldn't know. [00:03:22] Speaker B: I remember watching you with the, with the Yankees in, in Phillies, for sure. We had, we had a couple Harrisonburg guys that were familiar with you when I was coaching in college. So they were pretty, they were pretty jazzed up to see a plane in the playoffs. I remember having some conversations about that. So. But for today, I mean, first, if you could, your path to that career, which is incredible, career to begin with, is not exactly straightforward, and there's a lot more to it than playing 11 years in the big leagues. And if you don't mind, I'd love you to take a minute and kind of walk the listeners through how you ended up being able to play in the big leagues for 11 years. [00:04:07] Speaker C: A minute is a big understatement, but we will try to do it. Yeah. I mean, Eastern Mennonite University, it's where I went to college. But I got there after the huge recruiting path that I went on as a junior who wasn't going to make his varsity team in high school until the current shortstop, who became a catcher, got caught smoking in school. So before the first game, he had to be suspended for the first game. So they're like, well, who's going to catch? And I was like, I, I catch because I used to play third, and there's a senior at third, and I don't want to be on the JV team as a junior. So I caught, I hit an opposite field dinger at Jenkintown High School down in the city in Philly and ended up playing every game the rest of that year. My senior year had zero recruiting offers besides Montco Community College out here in Montgomery County. And that coach told me, he said, we have a sophomore who's returning who's going to go to Concord, so you won't play at all as a freshman, but we would love to have you. And so I said, well, I don't really want to go to Montco So I got to find a place where I can get a degree in four years. And I was paying for my own school. So EMU had a church affiliation, school affiliation. And I remember because I didn't get good grades, I wasn't very good at school. I got a fifteen hundred dollar scholarship to, for being like a business major. That was like the only scholarship I got. And the coach, the coach had seen me play one time and my buddy from high school was a freshman there my senior year of high school. So he basically was the one that recruited me, went to emu, continue to have the elusive ignorant dream that I was going to play in the big leagues one day. And nobody told me any different. And I ended up playing all four years. I've caught every single game probably, I mean, we'll probably get into it at some point. But that's like going and playing right away as a freshman was the greatest thing that I could possibly have gotten. And as a program, all four years, we broke the school record for wins each year, each successive year. And you almost said it right. You said 29th pick. I always tell people I was 29th overall by the Blue Jays. It makes me sound like I was a first rounder. But I was really just the 29th person picked by the Blue Jays in that draft. I think people would remember the name. Let's see, Russ Adams, Dave Bush, who's now coaching extraordinaire. He was the Red Sox pitching coach for like six or seven minutes. Let's see, Bushy. I'm trying to think of any other big leaguers that were on that, not like prominent ones that people would know. And then I spent my first seven seasons, my first six full seasons with the Blue Jays organization. And they did not see me, value me as like, you know, somebody that could help out in the big leagues. There was a couple opportunities where they could have called me up, called somebody else up and you know, but when you don't get any money, it's one of those things that you got to really, really showcase something. And besides power and good defense, they wanted somebody that would get on base. They want somebody to hit for average. And I wasn't one of those guys. And then you kind of mentioned the journey. Like I was on how many different big league teams? A couple times, Phillies, I signed back there twice, Pirates twice, Yankees four times. So I bounced around quite a bit. But I was, like you said, parts of 11 seasons in the big leagues. I always try to make sure everybody knows it was also parts of 13 years in the Minor leagues. And some people are like, oh, the minor league sucked. Well, you know what? If there wasn't the minor leagues, I wouldn't have gotten those 11 years in the big leagues. I think I got a total of like, over six years of big league service time. And I collected that, John, like, one day at a time, sometimes two days at a time. Like I said with, with the Red Sox, but it was, you know, I love my minor league part of it. I hate that baseball's taking away all the minor leagues and everything and they're just slowly just getting. Because right now I think it's 20 rounds that they have for the draft. If you were listening in the beginning, 29th rounders ain't getting picked anymore. Maybe I would have gotten more. I signed for $1,000, but maybe I would have gotten more as, like a free agent afterwards. But there's less teams. I spent, I spent. Let's see, I spent. I went rookie ball. I went to extended spring training to back to rookie ball. I went to extended spring training again and back to rookie ball again. My first, basically two full seasons. And at that point I was hit. I was hitting like 300, but I was freaking. 24 years old. You don't need a rookie ball player at 24. So anybody who's listening, that's reclassed twice. You better speed your career up because once you get to pro ball, like, and you're old, they're like, sorry, like, we have three guys on the big league team that are a year younger than you. And it's like, crap, I shouldn't have reclassed all those times. But anyway, so I kind of glazed over a lot of stuff there. But it's kind of my career. If you think that's an interesting career plug for my book, how about that towel to backup catcher. But now, like, I love. I love talking about my career because I don't think. Because I see it now with my boys, I don't think my career is. There are people like, oh, it's such a unique career path. It is. But I'm closer to, like, every other kid playing than the ones that you hear about. Then the Bryce Harper's, the Mike Trouts, the, like, all those dudes have been better than you have been better than me. When I play with Trout, when he was 19, he was better than me. Now he was better than me. Like, those guys are the anomalies. I don't feel like I'm the anomaly. I feel like I'm closer to why I look at a Lot of guys. And I'm like, that dude's got. He's got something. Like, I kind of like what I see there. And everyone else be like, what? That guy sucks? I'm like, okay, yeah, you might think that, but at some point I suck too. So when I look at other guys, that's why, that's where like my journey. I look and I see other players and I'm like, I think he's got a chance. [00:11:15] Speaker B: You alluded to early on about the impact of being able to play every day at Easter men and I had on you. And it's something that we talk about. And I had a, a former boss of mine that I thought put it pretty well. And I think it lines up is at batson inning pitcher. It's. It's the most priceless commodity in baseball. And I watched it happen for some guys at William and Mary when I was there. And I was lucky enough to coach some really talented guys and. But the one common trait that they all had, the one common thing that they had throughout their career, is that every single one of them had an opportunity as a freshman to play significantly. And I don't think that any of them end up getting where they are or where they were. You know, some triple A guys, a big leaguer, I don't know if any of them get there, if they aren't afforded 200 at bats as a freshman to figure some stuff out. And I think the deck gets overlooked a lot of times where if you get a chance to go and play, you don't really know what your ceiling is because everybody develops at different rates. You learn how to play the game and talk a little bit about how impactful that was for you. [00:12:24] Speaker C: I mean, it's huge. I graduated from high school, I was 63195, which some people will be like, yeah, you know, decent sized guy, you know, But I was. I played soccer, I played basketball, I played baseball. I was like super disproportionate. You know, my legs and my butt were huge and my upper body was just undeveloped. And I think a lot of people are like, now they look at kids and they're like, gotta have the size, gotta have this. I was fortunate. During my time I was playing at EMU, I was also. I grew two inches. I put on 55 pounds and I graduated at 65250. And so I think when everyone's like chasing size and chasing time in the weight room, like I wanted it when I was in high school, but it didn't really didn't really happen. So when I rolled in there with an opportunity to play, it was something that if I look back at videos of me catching in college, I could throw the ball. That was it. We didn't have a catching coach. I mean, as you can expect, you know, Division 3 schools at the time, I think we had 17 to 20 guys on our roster. So it was like we didn't even have another catcher. And so it's not that. It's not that I didn't need somebody pushing me, but it was like I got. I was afforded the opportunity to hit, I don't know, like. 300 my freshman year. And at that time, like, I mean, the inflated, bloated stats of. Of division three baseball, we just switched over to the minus three minus. Yeah, minus three bats from minus fives. And like, if you hit over.300, it was awesome. But I got the opportunity to do that. I struggled at some points, but I was always back out there. I was always, you know, learning in situations. Opportunity to call my own game. Yeah, there's some senior pitchers, but that first year was such a massive, massive growth for me because it ended up ultimately setting me up to have success again my sophomore, junior and senior year. But it gave me recognition to be able to say, okay, well, he played as a freshman. Now you get to go play summer ball. Which I think really catapulted me playing summer ball in the Valley League. When you go and play against Division 1, mostly freshman and sophomore, you know, from. From the big schools. You know, my team had, you know, Alabama, lsu. I'm trying to think where else they. They got them from that year, but like, you know, ECU, all those teams that were legit Division 1, and it enabled me to come in and not just be like. Like these guys were coming in. They had like 50 at bats and they were like learning in summer ball to rehit again because all they had done was scrimmage against dudes on their own team. And I had. I was able to come in and kind of hit. Hit the ground running playing there. But had I not played, I didn't even get into, like, the distractions of college. If you sit there and you're like, wow, I'm not playing this weekend, like, what things are going to distract you? [00:15:41] Speaker B: You got to be. [00:15:42] Speaker C: I feel like I was a pretty focused kid. There would have been a lot of distractions that wouldn't have. I mean, James Madison University was in the same town as me. There was three colleges in the same town. There's a lot of things that can distract you. And not playing could have, could have derailed me there. But I was fortunate. I came into a situation where I got the opportunity right away. [00:16:05] Speaker B: Who'd you play for in the Valley? [00:16:07] Speaker C: My first two years I played for the Waynesboro Generals. And then right at the end of, right at the end of my second year, I don't even know if they've ever had another trade since, but I got traded to the Harrisonburg Turks. [00:16:21] Speaker B: I played for the Brave for Stan. [00:16:23] Speaker C: For the Braves, for Mike Bocock. [00:16:27] Speaker B: No, I played. So Bocock was in Laray when I was there. [00:16:31] Speaker C: Okay, okay. [00:16:32] Speaker B: He had like, they had a loaded team that Daniel Murphy was on that team and that they had a couple other big leaguers there as well. But the Valley is fun, man. [00:16:41] Speaker C: Stanton. Stanton. Stanton's where the sun would set in center field. So you were hoping for a cloudy start to the game so you could, you could get a few at bats in. [00:16:51] Speaker B: Yeah, that was the excuse I had when I hit like 202 that summer. So that wasn't, that was not my strong suit. But the. Do you think going through the process you went like being lightly recruited and then getting a chance to develop at Eastern Mennonite. Like a lot of guys go through what you went through in the minor leagues and they, they give up. They decide that baseball is not for them or they, they want to go on and do other things in life. And you know that. No shame in that. Like, it's such a grind. But like, do you think that prepared you to, to do that? Like what, what drove you to continue to grind that out? You know, being a 24 year old in rookie ball, like, there's a lot of guys who walk away and say, you know what, I'm, I'm done with this. And you didn't. [00:17:36] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I, I almost walked away a couple times too. I, I mean you can't, you can't go back for your third year of rookie ball and be like, yeah, my dad was taking me out to eat for my birthday, so I was turning 24 and I was my third starting my third year of rookie ball. And I told him, like, let's just drive home. Like, I'm, I've been married for two and a half years at that point. I didn't have any kids yet, but it was one of those moments where he's like, I mean, just like just push it out to the end of the season and then, you know, that carrot just kept getting dangled out in front of me and I, I Tell people I was probably ignorant enough to keep going, but I also felt like there was a bigger reason for why I was there. And you know, the people that I could impact and my wife and I's faith, we would always pray about it before the season. And it was like, okay, you know, fast forward a year after that. I get a call in the off season that after I had just gone to the fall league, you know, with all these super like stupid, stupid prospects is what I called them. Like these dudes who were like all first round picks, dudes that hit 30 bombs in the, in the bushes that year. And I got sent to the fall league and then I got called, you know, I got invited to big league camp. And so it's like, okay, well if I'm in big league camp, these guys see me now, if I do good. And it was always like that carrot just kept getting dangling and I kept chasing it, kept chasing it. And I really believe that if I had made the big leagues in 2007, I had, I had a really good month of August, two dudes in AAA got hurt and had I made the big leagues in 2007, which they could have called me up, I really think my career would have been super short. So I don't think EMU necessarily prepared me or not getting recruited necessarily prepared me for grinding out the minor leagues. I think grinding out the minor leagues prepared me to be a better big league player. I just development wise, I was just behind, I was behind a lot of guys and I think the, I think grinding through the minor leagues and not making the big leagues till I was 30 probably helped keep me around in the big leagues for parts of those 11 seasons. [00:20:02] Speaker B: Besides being able to catch and hit for power, like what were, what were some of the other things that kept you around? Like, I mean you clearly were wanted to be around those type of teams. I mean you played on some big stages in the playoffs, some huge markets. I mean with the Yankees and Phillies, like two of the big mark biggest markets in all of sports. Like what were. And you talked about impacting, you know, people throughout your journey in the minor leagues, like what were some of the other things that you think you brought to the table that were a difference maker for you? [00:20:31] Speaker C: I mean that was, that was a big one. Just, just that relationship that you put, that you put out there. Some people will be like, dude, this guy works so hard. And I was always like, working hard is like, that gets you to level, that gets you to zero. Like if you don't work hard you're already behind everybody else. So, like, you focus, you work hard, and then you get to the ballpark and then you show up for your teammates. It's not like, oh, guys, I don't got time for this. I don't got time to catch your bullpen as the backup catcher who plays once every four days in the minor leagues. I don't got time for that. I got a lift. No, you got to get there earlier because the night before you called and you asked the pitching coach, hey, when's so and so's pen? When's Percy's pen? When's McGowan's pen? Like, those. Like those guys are the ones who are the most important. And if, like, you think as the backup catcher, as a. Even every other day catcher on a minor league team, you're the most important, then you're cooked. And to me, I think your careers cook, too. But teams, I think one of the things that I benefited from, yes, I got called up to the big leagues in 10, didn't really play well or much for the Pirates. Then 11, 12, and 13, I played for the Phillies. And, you know, I made an impact offensively. Well, the whole time I kept playing defense. And right around that time, those playoff teams, those more analytically driven early teams like the Yankees, like the Blue Jays, like the Royals, teams that were taking that value early with the receiving, it was something that I did really well without, you know, without doing the. The Johnny High School rip it back into the zone like they do now. I was receiving well, and I was getting a lot of good numbers receiving. So that's why I think the teams ended up getting me the team. Playoff teams were picking me up because there was added value to that. And they're like, hey, you know what? If we. If we let him swing the bat, he might hit a dinger. But other than that, you know, we know we're getting behind the plate. And I think that value also was kind of in the relationship building. Like, what I had. I had a. I don't know if, you know, I don't even know because I'm forgetting his last name right now. Tanner. He's like the. He. He's the Yankees catching coach, and he's like the originator of the receiving matrix, like, stuff. I'll come up with his name at some point. But anyway, he was the. He came in as a Yankees catching coach, and he was looking at. Watching me receive and all that stuff I received from 2ft, not on one knee. And he's like, how is this possible. It's not even physic. You can't even physically get strikes. But all my numbers in the big leagues were elite. Like, I'd be top 10 every year and receiving. And he goes. He watched me one spring training game, and I, you know, I got a strike or whatever. But I'm always talking back there to the umpire, and he's like, you know what? I don't even think you're that good at catching. Kind of. Kind of ribbing me a little bit. But he's like, but you're really good at talking. So maybe. Maybe that's. Maybe you get the framing metrics with your mouth. Because I was always giving him a hard time because he was a rookie coach and he had all these, like, cockamamimi drills that he wanted us to. So I was giving him a hard time. But it was kind of like a backhanded compliment. But it was also true. Like, building those relationships with those umpires mattered because if stealing one strike, if getting one strike mattered as much as it does to organizations that they were. They were willing to pay certain catchers a ton of money to play, why wouldn't that relationship. Why not help build that relationship? And I think sometimes guys are like, whatever, umpires or losers or all that. You know, it's like they're people, too. Like, that's their professional career. So I just think. I think the. I think the relationship building goes farther than just how I played or, like, that got me my value or anything like that. It built the relationships that I have with a lot of people and the friendships that I have with a lot of people that I played with and even some that I played against. [00:24:49] Speaker B: Yeah, we gotta. We got a catcher on the podcast. Mr. Glasser was a. Was a catcher back in the day, and I think he would probably echo similar sentiments that that relationship's pretty important. [00:24:59] Speaker A: I mean, it has to be like. I think that's the one thing as a catcher that you have to. If you're a young kid listening to this. And I do think it's a little bit different, obviously, in the high school realm, because there's only, you know, what, four or five guys that you really have to take care of. Like, when you get to college, it's. It is a shock to the system because all of a sudden you have four, you know, depending on the program you're in, you're going to have 14, 15, 16 arms that you have to actually have a semblance of a relationship with. Know how they're like, you know, you have to know which guys are going to run arm side on you, what guys are going to run glove side, where sliders are going to go. Do they. What's their curveball do, how's their change up? And then you also have to know how to handle them, which I think is one of the biggest things that you. You grow as a catcher. And, you know, I. I think it's huge. When you talked about being able to play early, like, I was able to play early, but being able to, you know, and one of our best friends, I became his personal catcher, like, three starts into my freshman year for the rest of his career. But it helped me understand and learn how to handle people in those situations. Because you, like, you have to know the guys that you can go out in tight spots and get into. Or I have to handle this guy with white gloves. Like, yo, that's first and third with one out and tying runs on third late in the game. Like, he might not be doing well out there. So I have to go out there with white gloves and be like, hey, everything's going to be okay. I'm going to get you through this. All I need you to do is follow my lead. Or you can go out. Like, Josh Rickards was a guy. He's a Philly guy who was tough as nails. Like, I could go. I never forget, I went out to the mound once. [00:26:44] Speaker B: We were. [00:26:45] Speaker A: He gave up, like, two hits in a row. [00:26:47] Speaker C: Tight game. [00:26:48] Speaker A: I go out to the mound, and he looks at me, he's like, what are you doing here? And I was like, yo, it's hot. I. The rosin bags out here, my hand sweating. If they steal, I need. Like, my hand needs to be dry. Like, I just need some rosin. Like, hit the rosin bag, throw it on the ground, turn around, walk back. We punch the next guy out, get a ground ball out of the inning, two innings, like, we pull him out of the game, we end up winning. It's like the eighth. And he comes up, he's like, you did that on purpose, didn't you? And I was like, yeah, you needed a blow. But, like, I can't. I know that I can't go out there. Like, I could get into you, but I just know that if I make some stupid thing up, it's at least going to slow the game down for us. To where? Like, all right, let's get a reset real quick. Get your breath under you, get your legs under you. You're fine. I'll tell you something stupid, and then you get on the bump and we go, you know, and like, those were different. We had different rules then when you could kind of just call time whenever the hell you wanted to call time and go out there and do what you wanted. Now in colleges, you know, you get only. You only get three as a. As a defense. But, you know, I think it's. It's so. It's so important to understand, especially as a catcher, that those are things that you need to do and at least start to understand that that's what you got to do if you want to play in college and. And beyond. Because it's. Generally speaking, I would say, like, those pitchers, Jonathan, are sometimes very, very vocal in what it is and who it is they want to throw to. And if you can, you know, not to say that you want to, like, weasel your way in, but if you can prove that you can, you're. You're good enough behind the dish and you can steal strikes and you can block balls and you can catch and throw, like, you know, we talk about this all the time. Defense is the path for a lot of younger players to get on the field early in their college careers. Usually your bat is the thing that's a little bit behind when it comes to younger players in college, but defense travels. And we're in an era right now where we don't necessarily put an emphasis on a high priority, I should say, on defense. And if you can be really good defensively, you can find yourself in the game in tight spots early in your career or just in the game in general, because, hey, man, we have seven guys who can bang it. We can live with a freshman catcher who can catch and throw and maybe isn't going to be all that offensive, but let him figure it out along the way. And it pays dividends in the long run because you're going to find yourself in spots where, you know, all of a sudden it's the eighth inning, like, you're the guy that's trusted to be behind the dish of like, hey, he can catch, he can throw, he can block. This is the dude we want in the game. And like, all of a sudden that confidence starts to build and grow and you'd be shocked at the things that you can do as you get older and, you know, start to mature, start to understand the game. And, you know, it's not all of this, right? Like, there's a lot more that goes into this. And I think if you want to catch and you want to be good at it, like, you need to understand the game at a Super high level in order to actually, really, really be good at the position. But the basic, being able to catch, being able to receive, being able to throw, being able to block. And not necessarily in that order. Right? Like, it's catch, it's block, it's throw. In my personal opinion, because you're going to catch a lot of balls, you're going to block less. Like, watch a college baseball game, watch a big league game. Like, no one's stealing 47 times and we can get out of. Everyone knows my stance on the pop time here in this podcast. Like, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things because they might steal twice. And if your pitcher is a 1 9, you ain't throwing anyone out. But if you can do those things really well, you're going to find yourself in a spot to be, you know, playing early on. And I think the, like, I laugh at the relationship thing with the, with the umpires. Like, I talked so much behind the plate. Like, I used to get yelled at all the time from dugout of, like, stop talking to the umpires all the time. But, like, we got a lot of strikes. I remember at the, the World Baseball Classic, Andy, we were Bobby Hashtag, I think you were, you might have been a senior. And Bobby Hash restarted and like the strike zone was keyholed in the first inning and Jeff was the. I forget his last name. He's like a big time umpire now. Was behind the dish and I went out in the second eight. We had him all the time. And I was like, I threw down the second turned around. I had my head down. I was like fixing the, the spots where we sit. I was like, hey, just because there's, like, it was. We played army and they would have like a clinic. There was like 5,000 people there. I was like, yo, just because there's 5,000 people here doesn't mean that strike zone has to change, change tonight. And he was like, what you say? And I turned around. I was like, you heard me. Like, I'm talking. We were like 24 inches the next, like, the next five innings. Like, we melt Bobby through that. Who had no business doing it. We ended up winning like 13 to 4. It was awesome. He was like, what did you do back there? I was like, you always tell me to not talk, but I'm, I'm getting strikes left and right tonight. I don't know why. [00:31:31] Speaker C: No, you're right. And, and it's. How do you thread the needle of being humble enough to not make it about you being confident Enough to know that everybody's going to follow you. Like, I think too many times the catching position is. Is full of a bunch of dudes who are like, oh, this dude, he just needs to shut up and listen to what I have to say. There are moments, for sure, but there's also, like, how do you instill. How do you instill that inception thought for a pitcher where he is going to throw the best pitch he can possibly throw because of the confidence that you instilled in him because of, you know, so many different things probably doesn't happen in game, but there's a lot of stuff that does happen in game. Like, so that the catching position is so intricate. I think it's why a lot of catchers become big league managers. [00:32:24] Speaker A: No, I agree. And, like, it's to your point earlier of, like, calling, you know, calling and finding out when guys are throwing. Like, that's where you build a lot of that trust of like, hey, I want to spike a breaking ball here. Like, I'm trying something new. Like, tell me what you think. And your feedback is just as important and likely more important those situations, because, a, it's verifying what it is that they're feeling and seeing, but also you're giving a different perspective of, like, hey, and like, you can't be afraid to be. Like, that was terrible. Like, that was. That wasn't a good pitch. We need, like, if you want to do that, I need that pitch here. Or you are like, you know, hey, where do you need me to set up? Like, what's your reference point? Like, because we were Easton, like, it's the E on your chest protector. All right, where do you need me sitting on this pitch so that you get it to go where you want it to go, but then making sure that you remember that when you get into game. Of like, hey, I. Like, he's. [00:33:23] Speaker C: He. [00:33:23] Speaker A: We're in an O2 count, and he wants to bury this breaking ball. I need to get myself out over here and maybe sit a tad bit lower to kind of get to get away with those things. And I just, you know, I have a problem. My son. My son is very, very into baseball. Like, loves it. And I couldn't be happier. Right? [00:33:41] Speaker C: He's. [00:33:43] Speaker A: The other day, he was. My. My wife was pitching, and I was. Or he was catching and I was hitting, and he was like, no. Yeah, I was catching. He was like, no, no, no, daddy, you have to have a knee on the ground. And I was like, no, dude, we do not catch with the knee on the Ground here. And he was like, that's what I watched on baseball. I was like, that's great. But in this house, we catch on two feet. We do not catch with the knee on the ground. And he was like, well, I'm like, he's four. I'm like, no, no, no. Like this. There's some, there's a lot of things. I'm going to let you do whatever you want to do in baseball, but we. When you catch, you will catch with two feet on the ground. [00:34:19] Speaker C: That's good. That's good. Well, you already started him off on the wrong foot. Literally. Literally on the wrong foot. But you know what, he's never getting drafted at 4. I can tell. [00:34:29] Speaker A: Already dreams over for him. [00:34:31] Speaker C: Dreams over. Yep. [00:34:32] Speaker A: We should switch into a different sport. Yep. [00:34:36] Speaker B: How do you feel about the changes that have gone on? It's been pretty drastic in terms of how the catching and you see it, you see it with really young kids now. I mean, do you have any, like, firm stances on how it is or, you know, is it more about just trying to find a comfort level for a kid and, and that kind of stuff? I mean, you see the 20 warriors come out and they love to highlight when some dude throws a 93 mile an hour snapdragon that goes in the other batter's box and they go, well, if he was on two feet, he would have blocked that. I mean, one, I'm not sure that anybody really can. If you haven't been there, I'm not sure if anybody can really grasp the, the difficulty level of catching the kind of stuff that guys have. But where's your head with that? [00:35:21] Speaker C: I am all about the results. Like when somebody's like, oh, that was a cheap hit, I'm like, wait, what was the last word of that? It was a hit. Cheap or not cheap, I'll take a knock. An ugly looking block, an ugly looking, you know, throw down the second. I'm probably going to say, you know what, maybe that's not going to be consistent. What does it look like consistently? That's what I want to see. And I think sometimes that's tough. In college sports, high school sports, high school, you're playing 20 games, you know, but you can tell how a guy's moving and getting in the way of the ball. I think there are, I think there are benefits to the one knee down. I completely agree, but it's not a one size fits all kind of thing. When I saw J.T. realmuto go to one knee, I was like, you know what, J.T. realmuto's athletic enough. He could. They could tell him to go on his head first and then receive it, and he'd still be able to do it. Like, JT Romuto legitimately could play a three game series at shortstop in the big leagues. And you'd be like, shortstops kind of doesn't have this first step, but he looks pretty good. Oh, wait, that's J.T. realmuto. So you can't sit there and go, okay, we're teaching J.T. realmuto, the most athletic shortstop in the game, to catch on one knee. And the origination of the one knee catching was Tyler Flowers. Tyler Flowers, when he first started catching on one knee and just absolutely ripping balls, I'm like, why are you doing that? What is. He's like, well, the receiving numbers, they're coming into the game and all this stuff. And I'm like, okay, but like, he's like, your receiving numbers are awesome. I'm like, I no idea. I said I felt like I was a good receiver, but he's like. He's like, yeah, but what I do is I'm getting the bottom of the zone. I'm just ripping all those pitches. I'm like, but why are you doing it on one knee? He's like, because the meniscus in my left knee is shredded. He's like, I have to sit down on one knee. So that's the origination of it. And he. He's like. He goes. I go, bro, you threw out like 9% of the runners. He goes, nobody is holding anybody on the White Sox. Nobody was holding any runners. He's like, so now I'm closer to the ground so I can block, which I wasn't very good at because of my knee. I'm going to throw the same amount of guys out, and I'm getting the bottom of the zone. So I'm like, dude, that's kind of genius. But that doesn't mean everybody on two feet is going to suck at receiving. It just means if you teach it correctly. Because we're just talking about catching right now. If you teach it correctly, you can do it from two feet. You can do it from one knee. My. My. One of my best friends in the game is Kyle Higashioka. He catches. He catches. I forget what the percentage is from two feet. He's the highest percentage by far of anybody catching two feet. He has ridiculous ankle mobility and hip flexion. He can get so low. And he stays in that primary stance even when he goes to block because he's so he's able to get his feet out from underneath him and he still gets ridiculous numbers. He's a top, he's a top five receiver every year in the game. And I mean he essentially, I know he hit a bunch of dingers for the Padres, but he essentially got his two year deal with the Rangers because of what he does behind the dish receiving. His receiving numbers are valued so high. I. So a long story, a long answer for your question. If you need to get on one knee and you can still throw dudes out and you can get that 1 yard Dart 95 heater blocked, which you're never going to get, nobody's ever, nobody's ever taken their whole body to a fastball that's, that's yanked away at 95 miles an hour. But from a knee you might be able to just move your mitt down, move your hands down because you're already down there. And maybe you get to it. Like that's when guys are like, no example number 3,000 of the one knee doesn't get the job done. No, no, no. You can be locked in, you can be focused on one knee or you can be locked out and be like, I'm going to kind of lazy pick this one. And on two feet or on a knee. To me it's about the effort. To me it's about what was the intent on that pitch. And I have a tougher time with it in, even in some of the lower level college, but definitely in high school because no dudes in high school throw strikes. Like you're talking about big league dudes who throw in lanes. Like, this guy's going to command the outer lane. Now the better pitchers are going to command, you know, the outer quarter of a lane and their misses aren't like, aren't spraying like a high school game. And the other, the only other part of it that I don't agree with is the fact that moving from third to home will never be the same value as moving from first to second. But analytically, this is why the story is told that it doesn't matter. Stay on a knee. When a runner's on third, you have, you have to. I'll throw grass a in front of the ball if, if it means I'm going to stop it. Like I'll reach back and throw the umpire in front. You have to stop the ball. Yes, from first to second. But analytically it says each 90ft is worth point two, two runs. And I will firmly disagree with that analytically, third to home cannot be worth the same as first to second. It just isn't. It isn't. So you have to be able to do something. It's like saying, well, this guy's a ridiculous fastball hitter middle of the zone. But, you know, I don't want to change his swing to be able to hit a breaking ball in the middle of the zone. And it's like, well, you have to, because you have to be able to be adjustable. You have to make adjustments at the plate. You have to be able to make adjustments behind a dish. If it means you got to be up on two feet to get to a ball, to block it with a runner on third, you have to do it. Because I've been in too many games, I've lost too many. I've lost three game sevens in my career with runner on third in 2014, World Series against the Astros in 2017, against the Dodgers in 2018, like, lost those games. And one run could have shifted the entire game. So you can't tell me a run from third to home or a 90ft from third to home is equal to from first to second. And that. So when you delve into it, that's why it's okay to be on a knee. I get it, I get it. But that's part of it that I don't agree with. And you have to have those conversations. [00:42:26] Speaker A: I think the. At the youth level, it's just you're, you're teaching kids that aren't athletic enough to do it. Like, you're at it, like at its very basic 3,000 foot level. Like, they're just not athletic enough to do it. And there's college guys that aren't athletic enough to do it. And like at some point, and I think catching in, in some regard, and I'm not just saying this because I caught and you're on this podcast, like, there is a semblance in my opinion of like it's an art form and it's. Every guy can do it differently but still have really, really good results. And, you know, you don't necessarily see that in every other position. Right. Like, center field is not the same as catching or shorts. Like, you know, shortstop. I guess we could argue a little bit, Andy, but like, you know, I, I caught differently than most. Like, you know, with nobody on, I, I was flexible enough. Like my, my butt was on the ground because it was, it was, yeah, it was trying to steal bottom of the zone strikes, make everything look better. Whole nine. And like my, my secondary stance was most people's primary stance, but I Was like, that was just me. There was other people who couldn't do that, and, like, I couldn't do what other people could do well. So it was figuring out, like, what do I do? Well, that works for me. That also allows me to be able to do this. And I think that that's. It's a lost art in some regards in a lot of things in our game where we just try to make everyone the same instead of allowing for that adaptability, adjustability. Like, yeah, maybe it doesn't look great, but. Or it doesn't look right, but, I mean, it works. So why, like, why change this type of thing? And I think sometimes as. As coaches and as fans, like, we look at things sometimes of, like, this, this could be. If we change this, this, and this, it could be better. Like, you know, we've changed things as coaches and made kids worse. Like, sometimes you just let. We had a kid who made a AAA when I was at Sienna. If you watched him hit when he was in college, there was absolutely zero way anyone would ever teach him to hit the way that he hit. But the kid hit 60 bolts in 30 in three years and went in the eighth round. Like, I could. I got there at sophomore year, and I was like, yeah, I'm not changing anything. Like, he wouldn't hit 29 home runs. People are like, oh, you're a great. I'm like, I didn't do anything. Like, maybe I'm good because I did that, but, like, I. I didn't do anything. Like, I was just like, hey, man, you have absurd bat speed, and you're on the barrel all the time. Like, we're. When you struggle, let me know. Like, and like. But, like, you would never. You would never teach it. Like, I mean, hands in front of his face. Like, bat barrel was like, almost in front. Like, even with his eyes here, super narrow, huge step. Like, huge load. But, like, when he landed, he was in position and, wow, did that barrel get through the zone. And it was like, I'm not going to. Like, what am I going to do? Spread you out and move your hands back and give you a trigger? Like, no, dude, just go hit. If you struggle, we'll talk about it. But I. Like, we've. I feel like we've gotten away from that in some regards in the youth game of, like, there needs to be. You know, I don't want to say Cookie Cutter, because that's not probably the best answer, but, like, everything needs to be the same instead of just letting kids be. [00:45:43] Speaker B: I think cookie cutter is A great way to describe it because I think. I think they do it with infielders. Kids get really good at field and ground balls with cones, and you take, like, you. You zap the athleticism out of kids times. And like, you know, I feel like it happens with hitters and there's some guys who are really awesome hitting guys. So, like, this isn't a knock on those dudes, but I feel like with the rise of technology, we've. We try to fit people into these little boxes instead of capitalizing on what guys do well. And, like, I didn't. None of this ever crossed my mind until I ended up, like, at the back end of coaching, where you realize, like, that epiphany moment is like, sometimes the best coach you can do is not to change something and let a guy be successful with what he does. Instead of going, well, he's a little bit steep on his entry, and I think he's going to trouble with spin. And like, all right, well, you know, maybe we change his swing a little bit. But then you look at it and you're like, maybe I should just talk more about pitch recognition and how guys are trying to get him out so he's not as susceptible to the breaking ball and don't mess with the kid swing. And, you know, I think that. I just think sometimes we zap the athleticism out of kids by trying to fit them into these boxes of like, well, his swing needs to be on plane or, you know, his back knee as he goes to deliver down the mound. And Jonathan, you might be able to touch on this that, like, these facilities are awesome for a ton of different reasons. But I also think that sometimes you just. It's like a factory line and you can zap what a guy does naturally. You know, how a ball comes out. [00:47:21] Speaker D: Of his hand naturally is always like, eric, touch on this. But, like, I think letting. Let them play. Like, like, stop trying to push it so much. Stop trying to, you know, like, you know, I know you guys talked about, like, the mountain visit stuff, and, like, sometimes it's cool to be like, well, what are you doing out here? [00:47:43] Speaker A: Not much. [00:47:44] Speaker D: What are you up to? [00:47:45] Speaker A: Right. [00:47:46] Speaker D: How's everything going? [00:47:49] Speaker A: It's warm out. [00:47:52] Speaker D: Like, and that's sometimes the best thing to do. Like, you know, like, I don't know. Like, that's just. That's just the way I've always done it. Like, I'm just like, what's going on? [00:48:04] Speaker C: What. [00:48:05] Speaker D: What am I doing wrong? [00:48:06] Speaker C: I don't. [00:48:06] Speaker D: I mean, I mean, we can talk about what you're doing wrong, but, like, having fun, right? [00:48:13] Speaker C: Or. Or even. Or even, like. And John, you can sit. I mean, you've seen it, like, travel, baseball. I love when kids play multiple sports. I love. And I get it. And I get it that it can take away from this time period or this. But what it does is it allows the kid to play and be able to be like, golly, I am not throwing any strikes. I'm not saying, like, ooh, my jumper makes me feel like I'm gonna throw strikes. No, it just gets their mind off it. And they learn how to go out and compete instead of the only practices they ever have, only games they ever have are at a facility in this place. Or, you know, they show up to practice and they're like, oh, regimented. Okay, it's all good. Those are all good things. But when it's just that there's no ownership to. Then the kid goes out onto the field, and then they go, well, somebody going to tell me what the schedule is for me to play this game? Like, you know, you go out to the mound, hey, what am I doing wrong? Well, you're not throwing strikes. And when you are, they're absolutely making our outfielders run. So how about we not have a track meet in the outfield and you get back in the zone before the third pitch of the at bat? Because anybody can hit. Like, those are things that, like, you're giving your kid the most opportunity because you're putting them in this facility. He's getting, training, all that stuff, but he's got to go out and compete. He's got to go out. Like, if your kid goes fishing outside of baseball and he doesn't care that he doesn't catch the biggest fish, you're like, wait a minute, how competitive is this kid? Like, the competition part of it. You train, and then the competition part of it takes over in the game. You got to be competitive. And I think sometimes. Sometimes we're too trained, too, too coached. There's over. We always said, we always called it in in pro ball in the minor leagues, all the different, like, coaches, the running base, running coach, hitting coach from the organization would come in and be like, oh, great. Staff infection. I get it. We're not getting mrsa. But it was a staff infection because all these guys are coming in. It's like, oh, we're gonna do base running, and we're gonna do hitting. And it's like, shouldn't we have been already doing all that all the time? And they come in and they're like, yeah, you're right, you probably should have been. But there's so many coaches, mental coach and pitching coach and assistant, pitch developer and all that stuff. [00:50:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the back half of my coaching career, like I would say when I became head coach, I started noticing it probably the last year or two of being an assistant, then when I became the head coach. And it's not an indictment on, on kids nowadays. I think it's more of an indictment on the system that we're talking about that you had to teach freshmen how to compete, which is a bizarre concept, I think, for people our age to wrap their minds around. And I, I do think in part it's the rise of the special, like the specialization of sport, of just playing one where like, you know, we're kind of the last, the last generation of people who played two or three sport. Like I was a three sport athlete. I know Andy was like, I know. Jonathan Blade. More than one, like, it was more you, like, you had to learn how to compete in other sports and it helped you in all of them. And now like, you know, I would make up stupid competitions at practice to just get guys to like, learn how to compete and want to win. And you know, because when the lights got, when they flip the lights on and you'll see it like guys will fold under that, that semblance of pressure. And there's not a game like ours, you know, unless you're into wrestling where like, if you're, if you're the, you know, if you're the pitcher, like no one's coming to help you. Like, you got the ball, you have to somehow figure out a way to make pitches to get out so that we can get out of the situation and win this game. And no one's coming to help you. And if they do come to help you, it's probably not good because you're, you didn't do your job and you're going to go sit on the bench and the likelihood of you getting the ball in that spot the next time is vanished. So, like, you know, teaching younger guys how to do that, you know, And I chuckled when you said, like, you know, what's the structure? You know, you get that first fall inner squad. It's like, how many pitches am I throwing? What am I doing? Like, you know, it's real baseball, man. Like, we're playing three outs. So, like, however many pitches it takes you to get three outs is how many you're going to throw. Like, oh, okay, it's not like 15 is it a 11 count. Like, no, it's an O count. Like, there's no one one count. Here it is. Oh, it's you versus him, and let's see who wins. And, you know, it's a shock to the system for. For younger players because they grow up in, you know, the ecosystem in which we've developed of, you know, some of this showcase stuff. And I'm not saying it's all bad, but, like, when you get to. When you do get to that next level, you have, like, it is a shock to some guys about what the competition and. And how competitive it becomes. And Andy and I talk about it a lot. Like, you're going to go play in college. [00:53:42] Speaker C: You're going to. [00:53:42] Speaker A: You're stepping into an uber competitive environment, and if you're not ready for it, you're likely to struggle, you know, until you start to figure it out. Right? And, you know, like, we had a guy. I'm not patting my own back, but I had a kid who played for me who then went and played for Jonathan and Andy. One of our best friends, Eric, out in San Francisco, and when he graduated, he was like, I've never met two people that are more competitive than you guys. And I was like. And I, like, I know I'm competitive, but I'm not. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not looking to, like, at 39, I'm not looking to do anything crazy, but, like, yeah, man, I want to win. Like, I don't know what. Like, what's the point in doing this if we're not gonna. If you don't want to win and be successful and. And I always kind of pose that question to my team. Like, what's the point of. What's the point of working out all the time and lifting and putting all this time in if, like, we get on the field and it's like, whatever, you know what I mean? [00:54:36] Speaker C: What's the point? They told me to. Right. That's why. That's why some of the kids do it. And I don't think the kids are any different. No, I think it's the parents. [00:54:44] Speaker D: They're not wrong. They're not. [00:54:48] Speaker A: I don't think. I don't think. Sorry, Jonathan. I don't think there's that much of a difference. The only difference that I would tell you is I think that it's more like they want to know why. And I don't think it's a bad thing. I think that they're more invested in what it is. Like, when we all went through it. It was like, jump. Like, okay, how high? Like, there was no real questioning going on when we all came up in baseball. Now, like, people question it and it's like, you know, it's. I always viewed it like, at least I can teach more about what's going on from a coaching perspective or a baseball standpoint of like, hey, what if this situation happens? Or where am I supposed to be here? And it's like, well, you know, it depends. And I'd always tell them, like, it's not a cop out answer. Like, our home field is 300ft down the right field line. Like, we're not double cutting it into the right field corner. So, like, in this situation, I need you floating in the center of the field in case we overthrow or we're going to backdoor someone at second base because he overran second. Like that. Stuff like that where, like. But I always like those questions for those reasons. But I think, like, that's probably the biggest change that I saw in the. [00:55:52] Speaker C: Back end of my career. [00:55:54] Speaker A: But again, I never viewed it as a negative. It was more like, I viewed it like they're more invested in what's going on instead of just questioning the, you know, not questioning at all and being like, yeah, okay, sure, I'll do it. But then like, then you wonder, like, are they really. Do they understand what I'm talking about? Like, I'd rather you ask the question of like, hey, what am I supposed to be doing? Than not, right? [00:56:18] Speaker D: I said it all the time. And you know, a little bit off topic, but like, you know, we, we had a situation this fall and we were in a showcase type setting and coach comes over and he goes, hey, you want to flip the inning? Pitcher was really struggling. And I'm like, no, we're good. And half inning later goes by and the guy comes over, he's like, yeah, why didn't you want to like, flip the inning? Like, like, because nobody learns anything from flipping the inning. Like, nobody's, Nobody learns anything from that. Like, he learns from me going out to the mound and taking the ball. That's where he learns. And if you really want to teach them how to grow up, what life is actually like in this world, then you'll go and take the ball from them and you won't just say, hey, that's it. Okay, no big deal. And then he posts on Twitter head, you know, I face six batters. I had, you know, 88% strikes. And well, yeah, but like, we also stopped the inning because you had Five guys on, like, you know what I mean? Like, you walk the guy in, you face the fifth guy and you walked him. Like, what? You didn't learn anything from that? Like, you. In order to learn, you have to learn a little bit. Like, life's not always fair. Like, when I go out and take the ball from you, you learn something right there. You don't learn anything from me going, hey, flip it here. [00:57:54] Speaker B: You know, the easy way out is not always the best way. And I think it's a. I think at times it can become a default to try to protect the kids. But to your point, Jonathan, like, you have it. You now have a T. You now have a legitimate teaching moment for that kid. And then on the flip side of it, if you leave him out there and he finds a way to get out of that inning, I mean, that's. Now you're cooking with oil because now you've got the lesson of, hey, you grinded it out, man. Like, that's what it's all about. And, like, moments like that for young kids, I think can really change the game for him. Because I think that when they can find some success in a tough situation that just propels them forward, they're like, oh, all right. If I give up a leadoff double, like, I still got a chance of getting out of this inning. Every time. Every coach we talk to, Jonathan, you're in the same boat here as me and Keith. Every coach that we talk to, once they find out a kid's got enough skill, enough talent, whatever label you want to put on it, the first question they ask is, how competitive is he? And then the next thing they. They. They value is, I want to see him have to deal with some failure. How do you react when an umpire calls that ball that's four inches off the plate with the runner in scoring position? Do you just completely tank the rest of the game because you can't handle your emotions and the next at bat's bad and you take it out in the field? How's that pitcher react when the freaking nine hole guy ambushes a fastball and he finds himself in a little bit of a jam? Does he pitch out of it? How's his body language change? Because inevitably, when they get to college, they're going to have a moment like that where it's just going to be a bad day. You're going to get lashed around the yard or you're going to kick a ball at shortstop, or you're going to have trouble blocking some nasty breaking ball from some dude. Who's 22 and ripping 88 mile an hour sliders or so. I think that those moments, like travel ball coaches out there listening, like, I'm not saying let a kid go out there and just let it completely break it down, but give them a chance to dig themselves out of a hole. Like, let them learn. I think it's, it's hard to quantify how impactful that can be. [01:00:13] Speaker A: The game's too hard. [01:00:14] Speaker D: Me say this a ton this fall because we had a really good team and his younger son's on play for me. [01:00:21] Speaker B: And. [01:00:24] Speaker D: I, I said it all the time to our guys and we were in some big spots like, yo, food was easy. Everybody would do it. Everybody would do it if it was easy, right? 100 supposed to be easy, supposed to be hard. Just like life supposed to be hard. [01:00:44] Speaker C: Nobody wants it to be because you don't see, you don't see what, what happens when you push through it. But after you look back, I mean, my, yeah, my son Ethan, he, He remembers you saying that several times. It's like, because they had some tough losses, like, you know, some dudes, some dudes did well and then they failed in the biggest spot at the end. And like, that's ultimately, like, we're talking about a sport right now. And I think sometimes, like baseball, because that's what I know, that's what I did. People are like, yeah, life or death. No, it's not. Like, the reason we came up with sports was to, for high school was to give kids an outlet for life. Now we've turned that outlet into, well, he's going to be pro. Well, he's going to get his college paid for. Probably not, but there's a chance. And to me, and this is what I take from my career, and I hope, you know, I go and speak at different events, different, like corporate events and stuff. If you put everything you have into a goal, into a mission, into a team goal, into an individual goal, and you fall short, I promise at the end of it, you'll be disappointed you fell short and you'll remember that disappointment. That is, like I said, game seven, that is getting cut the last day of spring training, getting cut partway through a season, whatever it is. But I know at the end of that day, when I got cut, when we lost game seven a couple times, I was able to put my head on the pillow and know that I did everything I possibly could. And I think if coaches do that, I think if players understand that they're going to be better sons, they're going to be better brothers, they're going to be better husbands and they're going to be better men for our society because of sports. And if you don't go through the struggles, I don't know if you guys know who Drew Waters is. Drew Waters was a prospect coming up through the Brave system. Like, dude was 20 or 21 years old when we played together. Went over to Japan, had never struggled. He made it all up to Triple a as a 20 or 21 year old. Never struggle. Switch hitter with speed, had a cannon like. And we're playing with, we're playing with some really good players on this Team USA team. Joe Adele was playing in the outfield with him. I'm trying to think who the other outfielder was at the time, but he struggled. He struggled out of the gate the first two games and got benched. That was the first time he struggled in his life. So if you can put these kids who are mediocre kids and not half as good as Drew Waters in a moment to struggle, they can learn that. So when they get to that spot, bang, now they know how to deal with it. And Drew Waters, he struggled for a little bit, learning how to deal with struggles. And it sounds stupid, but, well, how do you practice struggling? By letting them figure it out. And I get it, he was always, he was always just better than everybody else. So you can't really put him in a situation where he's going to struggle. But when he gets in there, they got to figure it out. Because in life you're going to have struggles and you got to figure it out. And your worth, your self worth, comes out of the work, not out of the results. [01:04:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think that this game, maybe I'm biased because we all played it and coached it. I think this game teaches you more about life because of how hard it is. In my personal opinion, like, you know, I think it's easy to watch on TV and be like, these guys are, you know, I could do this. Like, yeah, man, okay, sure. Like you haven't played baseball in 47 years. But yeah, go ahead and hit that 97 mile an hour fastball up in the zone like no shot. But I think like the, the amount of work that you have to put in just to be good at the college level or play, I'd not even be good to play at the college level. And then beyond it is a lot and I think it preps you for a lot of the things that you're going to do in life. And you know, I talked about a lot when I coached. And I know that, you know, for, for me personally, and I mean, it's something we can talk about when we're done with this, if you're interested. But like, you know, we have, I've gone through a lot in the last 18 months, and I don't know that we would be sitting here right now if I hadn't coached or played baseball for as long as I did with, with what we had to go through. And I think it's one of those things that, like, I look back on my career, I look back on from playing and coaching and like, that, that was the relationships I've built and the things that I learned in doing it and the failure and the constant push forward is what, you know, has us sitting here today. But, you know, I think it's one of those things that, like, I, I don't, I, I don't think it's hyperbolic when, when we say, when we talk about this stuff from a life standpoint, what it teaches you and, and how, what it means to be able to find that success and what you, what your success is, right? Like, your success could be a Division 3 Player of the year, right? Like, doesn't need to be making it to the big leagues. Like, that could be the biggest success of your life. And that's awesome. Like, couldn't be happier for you. But I think like, the sport and, and what you do from a high school, in college and if you're lucky enough to play beyond, like, it teaches you way more in my personal opinion about things than, than anything else. [01:06:26] Speaker B: Now you're, you're a father of a couple good ball players. One, you know, I know plays for Jonathan. Like, how do you trickle some of this stuff down? [01:06:36] Speaker C: Just every day, just talking every day about it. I mean, not like, hey, you know, we're sitting down right now and we're talking about this. But like, I think as a dad, that is unfortunate. I can be present. Like, I, you know, we play games together. We, they want to beat. You know, right now I have the record at our house for Papa Shot. So, like, Ethan has to, I sent a picture to him. Like, I'm like, dude, I'm not really employed, so I'm going to beat your record. You know, it's a little stupid thing like that, but it's like that competitive stuff that, like, we're fostering that competition. My daughter's 13. It's the same thing. And I think it is. Like, I give my boys a hard time because I'm like, look like you can't beat me at something. Like I'm still going to take you one on one, all this stuff, but it's fostering a, it's fostering a relationship, but it's also fostering the opportunity to have that conversation when it's happening. When my oldest son grounds out or makes the last out, the last in two years in states like dog, like you're, you were put in that spot, you're in the middle of the order to come through. Or the opposite side of coming through is you didn't come through. Like it happens. You didn't lose, you didn't lose the state game for us. You just made the last out. Like that happens. And hopefully he takes those things into college and you know, he's a freshman now and it's one of those things where there's no more. Like I don't have an opportunity to be out there coaching him right now. We can talk on the phone, we can have those conversations, but you know, how do you react in those moments? And it's, it's the conversations and then you get to a new challenge and you get to college for him. You get to college. It's like, whoa, everybody's big, Everybody's, you know, I thought I worked hard. I gotta, I gotta get on it because I gotta grow before, before these guys take all my playing time. And so I think it's kind of a roundabout answer, but it's just a daily thing. It's just daily stuff in life and then we're just talking about baseball. But in life, like, do you give a good handshake? Do you look somebody in the eye when they, when they're talking to you? And that's, that's, that's the kind of stuff that I love about coaching high school baseball. Like, we might have the most boring, exhausting practices ever. For my high school baseball team, we do a thousand of the basic things and we just do it over and over and over again so that in the game at some point you'll do something cool, but it'll just be a lot of really basic things that you've done back to back. And then you do some cool stuff too. And I think it's, you know, young men have an opportunity to stand out in this culture where, you know, people who are, I mean, I know I never heard this when I was a kid, they're made fun of for being a try hard. I was made fun of because I got two pair of pants before every school year and I'd grow out of them and they would look like, you know, it's going to rain because they were halfway up my ankles. That's what I got made fun of for terrible haircut. Kids now get made fun of for being tryhards. And as a coach, I'm like, I want the tryhards. Like I want those dudes. So it's like, that's a cool opportunity for me to be able to. [01:10:22] Speaker B: You. [01:10:23] Speaker C: Know, invest in those, in those kids lives in that way. [01:10:29] Speaker B: Yeah, that's, that's pretty cool. I mean, the try our thing cracks me up. I think that there's, you know, we deal with young kids and like, part of what we try to do when we help guys in the recruiting process, it's not just getting them to the Twitter post. A lot of it's mentorship and getting them to think about things the right way, understanding the work that needs to go into it. And I, I think one of the takeaways I have is I think some guys are hesitant to go all in and really compete because then they don't have an excuse to fall back on if it doesn't go well. And the kids who go all in on something like bravo to you, like, don't be scared to be the try hard. Like there's nothing wrong with that. Like, those are the guys that end up outplaying their talent. They're the guys who end up being key cogs in a machine that end up going and playing in college, helping, you know, helping to try to find a role. Like, we always had a guy like that when I was at William and Mary that had no business being on the field every day. But they're the kid who showed up and did everything the right way every single day. And somehow, some way, they ended up having to do something in a big spot and they came through. It's. It's amazing how that kind of sorts itself out. And I've told this story a couple times, but we had a guy who walked on for us from Texas, came really strong recommendation from an alum who you're probably familiar with, Will Rhymes. [01:11:55] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, yeah. [01:11:57] Speaker B: He's super nice guy. I threw BP to him once and he had a bunch of home runs. It was awesome. But he was involved in the program to a certain extent. He took a liking to this kid and we brought him on campus and he ended up coming to us and we tried to recruit over that kid every year. Every year. That kid ended up playing third base every day. Had a knack for timing. He'd Go over four and look like a complete fool for four at bats. And then he'd come up in his fifth at bat and just get. Just fish jammed and dump one in the right field and score a run. Like, he just had a knack for it. But by today's definition, like, he would be a try hard. But that Tryhard played 150 games in college. You know, like, I'll always have. And probably. Because I was. Probably had to be that guy. But I always have a soft spot for those guys because somehow they end up finding a way to make an impact. And I hope. I hope you get a bunch of try hards. [01:13:01] Speaker A: It's that kid that you like as coaches, you're always like, gosh, if I had nine of that kid, do you know how good we would be? Like, it's. It's that. You know what I mean? Like, it's that kid where it's like, you know, maybe he's a little less talented, but it's a high motor. He does everything. Like, it's that kid where you're like, gosh, If I had 15 of them, we would be unstoppable. [01:13:23] Speaker C: But if you had, like, give me, like, four of them and then five of them with this extreme talent. [01:13:30] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:13:31] Speaker C: But the drive of those guys, that's where it's at. Like, people, like, somebody used to tell me, like, dude, if you had nine, David Eckstein, I was like, bro, this is the big leagues. You would suck. Your team would suck. You would get. No, but the reason that David Eckstein works is because it's a reprieve. It's a different type of. He's playing his game. So what? When a coach says they want nine of those guys, what they mean is they want nine of those guys that are all in every single day. Because, gosh, like tortoise and the hare. The tortoise never wins if the hare never stops. But you know what? If you can get the hair to think like the tortoise, now all of a sudden, you got a freaking. You got a squad. And that's. And that's where. That's where it's at. That's where, you know, talent will always outplay grit. Unless talent takes a day off. [01:14:31] Speaker B: That's a good way to put it. All right, let's get into a little juicier topic. Little. This is a little college baseball, big league baseball hybrid conversation here. We had a pretty significant move in the college ranks. I don't know if anybody listening has been paying attention, but Mr. Mr. Tony Vitello is now the manager for the San Francisco Giants. And there seems to be some conversation on Twitter whether this is going to work out or not. Like, you've been in those clubhouses. I believe that you follow college baseball enough. Like, obviously, Tony's a pretty charismatic guy, and what he did at Tennessee's might be the. Might be the best turnaround of a program in the history of college baseball. When you think about what he was able to accomplish in such a short period of time, like, I think a lot of times we get caught up looking at what the product is right now. But, you know, Jonathan, me and you have talked about this a bunch of different times. What he walked into in Tennessee was not a good situation, and he won every title you can win there, national championship, SEC tournament, SEC regular season. Like, just absolutely remarkable. Now he's going into the big league clubhouse. Like, what do you think? Like, is it going to work? [01:15:50] Speaker C: I think winners win. I think winners win, and it will be up to him to make adjustments. But nobody. Nobody has ever. I've never heard anybody talk about Tony Vitello and say, dude, greatest X and O's guys that I've ever met. No, they talk about words like charisma, all in. You know, a people person. My favorite, favorite head coaches to ever to ever go to. Are there going to be some adjustments for them? Absolutely. My guy, Jace Tingler, is going to be his bench coach, and that dude's going to take care of the other adjustment stuff. Like, Tony Vitalo has no idea what it costs to tip a clubby on the road. You know, it's like little stuff like that that he's not going to understand, but that's like tiny little stuff. What he understands, he understands investing in players. And I don't know him at all. He was on. You know, we were. [01:16:58] Speaker B: We. [01:16:59] Speaker C: We. We met one time. He probably doesn't remember at all who I am. And I think he remembers every single player that's ever come through his system, good or bad. From what I've heard, that's how he connects with guys. That's as much of a connection as he makes with so many guys. And I probably would have questioned it more had it not been. Had he not been hired by somebody that I couldn't respect any more than I respect Buster Posey. Like, Buster knows what it takes to win. There's a certain mindset mantra, realness, not fakeness. I mean, I think somebody. Somebody tried to compare Tony to Gabe Kapler, and I was like, well, if that's the case. It ain't going to work because Gabe was too worried about what Gabe looked like, what people thought of Gabe and not what those people thought of themselves. And it feels like Tony Vitello understands and cares about what each player on the San Francisco Giants feels about themselves, how they feel, what's going to take them to the next level to be a winner. And do I know if it's going to work or not? No. I don't know. Ultimately, big leagues is about the dudes out on the field, but it's that tiny little edge does he have that he has a winning pedigree. He's going to have coaches that have been there. They're not going to put him in a bad situation. And Buster Posey would have never even interviewed Tony Vitalo had he not thought there was a chance, had he not heard from people that matter to him of what kind of person he is and the relationships that he builds. And we had Nick Hunley on. Nick Hunley was on the show today. He was going to. He was going to be the big league manager. He was like, I think Buster wanted him because they're. They're buddies. And Nick is pros probably, but Nick said Buster Posey, sometimes his intelligence gets overshadowed by his hall of Fame physical ability. Everybody sees what he's done. Like, the dude could rake, he could control his staff. He wins championships. He's like, people don't see how smart Buster is. And so Buster is going to see through the fakeness. I know, I know. Buster and I were in Bible study together for a few years. Like, he's. He's looking for the real and he can't stand. Like, he doesn't waste time with fakeness. So anybody that compares Gabe Kapler and Tony Vitello, that's not a good comparison. From what I've heard, I don't know either very well. But I know that Buster wants somebody that's real, that's going to. That's going to carry this team to a championship. [01:19:57] Speaker B: I mean, I give. Obviously, I don't know Buster Posey. I loved watching him play. He was. He was electric. But I give him a ton of credit for thinking outside of the box. The quote unquote, outside of the box. Because I think it takes some freaking balls to go and do that and have the conviction to do it. And I think Tony's kind of the best candidate for it. Like, obviously, he's a hot name in baseball, but, like, if you're going to make a move for it. Like, I guess he's the guy to do it. Like he's young. I, I'm pretty sure he's single. Like he can go all in on this with, with all the energy that that guy brings to the table. Like, I think there's a reason that the players who played for him speak the way they do of him. [01:20:43] Speaker D: I mean, Andy talked about this and Eric, we texted last week or two weeks ago. I guess it was about it. I think when you. [01:20:55] Speaker A: And I go. [01:20:55] Speaker D: And this goes back, this was before, you know, really Tony did, did anything at Tennessee and you look at the way his players reacted when him and Dave Van Horn got into it. He obviously worked for Dave Van Horn and they're, they're still friends, obviously, but when they, they beat Arkansas in a very big game on a Sunday and you saw the way the players reacted and had his back, I think tells you a lot about who Tony is. And I think like what me and you talked about, Eric, was, you know, a lot of the same stuff was that he can, he can really, really, really get buy in. And I think, and again, I was never in a big league clubhouse, so I can't speak to this, but I think if you can get that type of buy in, you know, at the Division 1 level, guys getting paid now, the whole thing, I think, I don't know if it's going to work. I would probably bet that it, I think it will. [01:22:11] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree. I agree. And, and Buster is going to put the best players he can possibly afford that ownership will allow him to afford. And that buy in is so huge. That doesn't. You talk about the clubhouse piece. Everyone's going to talk about Kyle Schwaber's, you know, value in free agency. There's a clubhouse aspect to it. And Tony's going to have to command that clubhouse with a cloth iron fist. Like he's going to know when to say, okay, well this guy's a leader. Matt Chapman's a leader. Willie Adamus is the energy leader. I don't want to step on Robbie Ray's toes. Logan Webb is a guy that needs to be prodded. You know, all that stuff has to be, has to be taken care of from his level. And then the team will go, the team will start, they'll start clicking off some wins. They understand they play in a, in a stadium that affords you the opportunity to win two to one ball games, three to two ball games. And if he comes in, he's like, oh, I love the launch angle. You're Going to see a lot of fly balls that are caught on the track in San Francisco. [01:23:28] Speaker A: Do you think? [01:23:28] Speaker B: The rise of college baseball, right, it's insanely popular compared to what it was 10 years ago. And obviously he's got a ton of buzz with what he was able to do at Tennessee. I imagine that more of these guys know who he is than big leaguers. If a college coach had come straight from college to the big leagues 15, 20 years ago, there's probably a lot of guys in that dugout. [01:23:52] Speaker C: Probably. [01:23:53] Speaker B: I don't know the hell that guy is like. I imagine a lot of them know who he is and probably understand, like, we're getting a dude that knows how to like, is at least know how to win at that level. You think that helps him? [01:24:04] Speaker C: It does help. I think everybody's. Everybody comes in with their preconceived ideas. The Latino players, I promise they're not like, oh, I don't care, this guy came from college. [01:24:16] Speaker B: I don't want. [01:24:17] Speaker C: No, it's going to be all about how he treats those guys. It's how they're treated in those moments. Yes, there's going to be, you know, Gilbert's already in that clubhouse. So, you know, they're going to ask him, hey, what's he like? What's he truly like? And I'm sure he's already talked about what he's like. He's already had those conversations. But everybody's going to come in because I think it's a, you know, it's a small, close knit fraternity, big leagues. I think there's some guys that are going to be like, what's his deal? Like, is he. How. How is he? And so he's going to have time. Spring training is going to be awesome for him because he probably has no idea. I don't even. Probably he has no idea how to run a spring training. And that's really not the manager's job. But he's going to be like, what? Like, we got, we got five feet, we got a B, we got a B team, we got B game. Am I going to the B game? Am I going to, like, big league camp can get fast. Like, I remember my first big league camp, it got fast. And then I went to, you know, by the end of my career, I went to 14. And including the second launch of big league camp in 2020, Covid spring training 2.0, like, there's a lot of stuff that goes on and I think how he handles the successes, nobody's going to care. How does he handle the fairs. How does he handle being embarrassed that he was supposed to be on field two, but it was field two at the Cloverleaf, not the half field, that's out in right field in Scottsdale. You know, that kind of stuff is how's he going to handle those failures? And they're going to be like they're going to get on him a little bit. They're going to, you know, if they don't get on them, it's going to be a quick, this is going to be a quick exit because the managers, coaches, anybody that's new rookies, if they don't get on you, they don't mean, it means, it means they don't want to waste the time with you. So I think, I think how he handles the failures and the connections he makes early with these guys is it will, will determine his success and failure as a manager, which isn't always wins and losses. [01:26:32] Speaker B: I hadn't thought about this, but I saw a couple people bring it up. I think it was Chris Burke who generally has some pretty good insights. I, I like listening to him talk, but he brought something up that I hadn't thought of. And maybe you haven't been, been in a big league clubhouse, but like handling the media on a day to day basis and obviously Tennessee is a pretty big stage from college baseball and you know, San Francisco might not be the big market like the Yankees or the Phillies, but obviously the tradition there is, especially in the last 20 years is crazy. Like they love their baseball in San Francisco. Do you think that. I feel like his personality, like he's going to be fine. He's, he's funny, he's witty, he's really intelligent. Seems like he can go between really poignant, well thought out, articulate, heartfelt responses to a little bit of comedic value. Do you think that that's something that could trip him up or is it kind of just. It is what it is. [01:27:29] Speaker C: The only way I think it trips them up because our executive producer of Foul Territory, he worked with them at major, at Major League Baseball Network. He had, you know, he would come in and do the draft. He was, he was, he was good. The only way it trips him up if it's that, if it's not really him and without knowing him, I would say it is, it is like his, his Persona, his aura is him. If he's trying to put on a front because he's like, okay, I can put on a front for 68 games in, in a college season and I'll just put I'll put this front on the media part of it. He's going to give 324 different media engagements before he ever steps foot in the postseason. They do two scrums a day for games, so at some point they're going to figure out if something's fake. If it's not fake, he's going to do amazing. He just has to understand that that is a part. And I think, honestly, that's probably why there's some dudes that aren't big league managers yet. Yadir Molina, Albert Pujols, two names that are thrown out there right now. They don't want to have that media relation. They don't want to have that headache. And to me, I think I know that is talking to other guys that interviewed for big league jobs or got big league jobs. Like, that's a big part of the interview process is how will you handle the media? Are you trying to put on a front? Are you looking to tell them everything? Are you looking to be like, snake in behind people's backs? Or are you just who you are? And you can be you, because anybody can be. You can be yourself all the time, but you can't be fake all the time. At some point, they're going to catch you in your fakeness, and then they're going to eat you alive. Even in, I mean, San Francisco's. San Francisco is a big media market. When I played out there for a month, month and a half, like, there's a big. There's a big following, though the expectations are high out there. [01:29:46] Speaker B: For sure. Stay staying in the National League West. He's got a. I don't know if winning a World Series is ultimately what defines his success. I think that that is a difficult, difficult task enough, but, you know, he's got to overcome the Dodgers. And, you know, they, they went back to back and everybody's talking about how the Dodgers are ruining baseball. Like, you've played in Pittsburgh, which is the other side of the story, and you've also played in Philly and New York, where, you know, they got money to spend and they're going to go spend it. And the, you know, how they do things financially is different. Like, do you have any thoughts on this? The, the Twitter, the Twitter wars around the Dodgers ruining baseball? [01:30:31] Speaker C: I do, and I think it is such a crybaby mindset. They're not ruining baseball. And I played for the Brewers. Smallest media market, smallest TV market in all baseball. And we were one Yasiel Puig home run away from going to the World Series and never wasn't a lot of money. Like they didn't have a lot of money. Yeah, they pay Christian Yellich. They locked him up. You know, they took it, they took a flyer, they gave him 200, $200 million. But you know what? They spent it. The last multi year free agent contract that the Pirates have given anybody was Ivan Nova, I think in 2017 or 18, something like that. I asked somebody the other day, they're like, who the heck is Ivan Nova? And this person knows baseball. I was like, yeah, like, there you go. To me, that's what's ruining baseball. Because as a baseball player, I think there's 23,000. I forget you, Savage, I think was like the 23,746 player to ever play in a big league baseball game. There's not one big league baseball player that says, yeah, you know what? I'm not, I'm just not, I'm not giving it all that I got. Like, I like winning and losing is okay. Like, we'll just, we'll figure it out. But in any given year, there's probably about 18 owners that say that all the time that own a big league baseball team and winning or losing is, ah, well, we'll see what happens. We'll figure it out. And it's a travesty. That's what's ruining baseball. So people are like, well, if the Dodgers win, then they're going to talk about salary cap and they're going to say how nobody else has a chance. Or maybe because the Dodgers win and they've spent, they've spent 50% of their revenue. I think it's actually more like why doesn't every team have to spend 50% of the revenue? Why doesn't every team in a monopolistic league, it's the only professional baseball league in America that matters. They're the best players in the world. And when you own a monopoly, part of that is like, it's, it's like legally you have to put together a competitive environment and not just try to suck the profits out of it. Like there are. And there's a lot of competitive questions around decisions that a lot of owners make. Yankees want to win. Red Sox seem like they always want to win. But their ownership, they need to come back to where the Red Sox should be. Phillies, John Middleton wants to win. Dodgers wants to win, Blue Jays want to win. And people will say, oh, well, those are all the top five payrolls. Yes, but they're also the top percentage spent payrolls in comparison to their revenue and their payroll. So to me, the teams that are ruining baseball are the teams that are not trying to put the financial wherewithal out there to put a winning team on the board. Yes. Will you lose some money? Some years? Absolutely. Will you gain it all back and some when you sell your team? Absolutely. To me, if you don't want to win, you shouldn't own a team. Go, go buy, I mean, go buy more newspapers. If you're Bob nutting with the Pirates, go buy more newspapers. If you're Bob Fisher, go, go buy, build a couple more Gap stores because you're good at running business, you're good at running Gap. But you know what? If you own a team, fans, customers, which are your customers, spend good money there. You wouldn't want to put out a bad product for your other, for your other stores, for your other business ventures, but you're okay putting out a bad product for your team. You're just, you're just out there entertaining. Like, come and watch our team. We're mediocre and in the best year we'll be a little above mediocre. No, like, put everything you have into it because you own a team and it's like, you know, it's a, it's a legacy thing to win a, to win a World Series. Why would you not want to put all that into it? So, no. That's a long answer for no. They are not ruining baseball. The teams that don't try, don't spend, say, well, you know what, like the Cubs, wow, it's just tough. You know, they count, they talk themselves out of signing every big league, big time free agent and as soon as they get it out, oh, we'll take that out. No way. We're going to celebrate Shode and Managa, you know, being an all star two years ago, working through injuries and had a down year and they're like, first chance they get to get out of a three year deal because he opted out of his contract, which triggered a three year deal option. They're like, nope, we'll just take the one year deal. Smart business move. Absolutely. But will that come back to bite them? And teams aren't afraid of that. Teams aren't afraid of that because their first priority, a lot of teams, first priority is not winning. So no, the Dodgers didn't, are not ruining baseball. [01:36:06] Speaker A: I mean, it's going to be interesting with schemes in Pittsburgh. Like, I mean, I already know what the answer is going to be. Right. Like I think we all do. But like that's going to be a hard one to sell of, like, yeah, we're not going to pay him. [01:36:24] Speaker C: So here's the thing. Let's say, let's say they truly showed me they're not going to pay, but they want to win. Because you can do both things. Then you know what? If you're the Pittsburgh Pirates, if you're the Colorado Rockies, teams that show and make moves that say they really don't want to win or they don't care about winning as much, go outside the box, be the first team to ever trade a Paul Skeens, a generational pitcher, before the year and a half that he's got left. Set a new bar, set a new bar. Say, you know what, Paul Skeens, we are going to trade you. You have four years left. You know what? We don't see our. We don't see us making it to. We don't see us making it to the playoffs with the current team that we have in four years. So we're going to trade you right now. You know, we're going to get back. We're going to get back another dude that's Connor Griffin's age, that's going to be our ace on the mound. We're actually probably going to get two of them. We're going to get another star. And in that four years, we're going to be able to make it to the big. We're going to be able to make it to the biggest stage. We're going to be able to set this franchise completely in the winning direction because we're willing to make that move. But no, they're going to sit there and they're going to do their song and dance. And probably his fourth year, he's going to start being on trade blocks. His arbitration numbers are going to get ridiculous. They're going to get like 10, 10 lintacum type of numbers in current day because there's no comparison for what Paul Skeens is doing. But we're going to miss out, like we're missing out on Mike Trout's career not being in the playoffs. Paul Skeens needs to be starting games in the playoffs. And to me, if I was the Pirates gm, I would say, you know what? I want to win and I'm going to push all in to win. And I don't think that's with Paul Skeens. I don't think because my ownership's not going to give me that money. So you know what? We're ripping the band aid off and we are setting this organization in a rocket ship to the playoffs because I brought back so much like look what Juan Soto brought. Juan Soto brought to the Nationals, Mackenzie Gore, their best starter, C.J. abrams, well, he has got some choice, poor choice decisions. He's their starting shortstop. Wood is a, could be a generational talent. 23 year old monster with oppo juice and I think Haslan, I think he was the fourth guy. [01:39:14] Speaker B: Yep. [01:39:15] Speaker C: Four dudes on their big league team. The Pirates can do that. Plus because Paul Skeens at this point right now is worth more than two years of Juan Soto. It's a. Or two and a half years of Juan Soto. I think it's a, I think it's, it's a bold move that they won't make because I don't think their idea of winning is there. They have an idea of we can sell Paul Skeens to the fans for the next two years and then we'll trade them. [01:39:43] Speaker B: The thing that sucks is that like it wasn't that long ago when McCutcheon was MVP caliber McCutcheon and you had Starlin Marte playing left field and you. [01:39:54] Speaker C: Had Pedro Alvarez, Neil Walker. I came up, I came up in the minor leagues with those guys. I got called up to like we were, we all played in AAA together after I signed Aaron free agency and then I was up in the big leagues in 2010 when all those guys, I mean Pedro Alvarez was silver slugger, ridiculous pop. They had Garrett Jones, who most people didn't know but carved out a nice five year career with the Pirates. [01:40:19] Speaker B: And they had Blanco, he was really young, like upstar with. You know, they had those three in the outfield and that place was electric. The town went freaking nuts. I mean you got baseball town. [01:40:32] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:40:32] Speaker B: You got the Steelers and you got the Penguins. Like there's a huge fan base there that loves their sports. And I don't want to say that they lucked into that group because I'm not sure it's a different. It was a different structure, like a little bit of a different setup there. I think Charrington was there at the time, but. [01:40:49] Speaker C: No, no, not Charrington. Neil Huntington. [01:40:51] Speaker B: Huntington. Excuse me. [01:40:52] Speaker C: Charrington's there now? [01:40:54] Speaker B: Yeah, the. His Red Sox guy as well, unfortunately. [01:40:59] Speaker C: Hey, you want. He won a championship. He did that one they may have lucked into. But no, the Pirates didn't look into it. They built that. They, they cultivated it. They had a, they had an Alpha in Andrew McCutcheon. You need an MVP type of guy to me, you know, is Connor Griffin going to be an mvp. He could be like, that dude is a, he is the, he's an alpha type of dude and he is young and he is, he's legit, legit person, legit talent, all that stuff. But are you willing to push when the time is to push? You know, they went out and got Justin Morneau, they went out and got Russell Martin, they went out and got different guys who would. [01:41:46] Speaker B: Did Burnett, did they bring Burnett in to. [01:41:49] Speaker C: During that time? Yep, during that time. And so you had all those pieces there and then they were willing to go out and get those guys. Are they willing to do that? Because right now, I mean, shoot the Pirates pitching staff. Oh my gosh, they have, they have Bubba, they have, they have Paul Skeens, they have Keller Oviedo is a good player. They have Harrington waiting in the minor leagues. They have like, they have, they have some pieces, but they have to supplement it. Brian Reynolds, great player. Not an MVP like key Brian Hayes was a great defender, but they wanted him to hit.270, 280. He was never going to do that. You know, I mean, I'm glad they got rid of him for his, for his sake. But you have to have pieces. You have to supplement those pieces. O' Neill, Cruz has to like, he needs a carrot. He needs. We had Kacho on the show in spring training and they're like, o', Neill, Cruz is an avatar. Like, you see him walking around and you're like, golly, this dude is. He's built different than everybody else. But when you're in a malaise, kind of like, you know what, winning is fun. It's cool if we can do it, but it's fine. You don't get the most out of those players. O' Neill's. O' Neill Cruz is a guy who's talented enough that put in the right situation. He can step up and be a force in a lineup, but he can't be the guy. Like I really thought, I really thought Pete Alonso, had they gone out in the off season, gotten a Pete Alonso to add to this team last off season when nobody wanted him, I think it would have made a splash that could have set things in motion. But Bob Nutting just every year, every year it goes more and more of him not spending any, anything on free agency just shows that, you know what? Well, we hope we thread a needle. We, we, you know, catch the NL Central in a bad year and maybe we can win 83 games and slide into the playoffs. [01:43:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you, I think you nailed it. Like you Want everybody to try to win every year. It's not realistic. But. Or at least have a. Or to your point, talking about getting rid of skins early, like, have a plan to get there. [01:44:13] Speaker C: Don't be afraid of failure. We've talked about that earlier. Yeah. Too many owners and. Well, too many gms are afraid of failure. Too many owners are just. They got gator arms, can't reach their wallet. [01:44:27] Speaker B: It's so good. [01:44:28] Speaker C: That's so good. [01:44:30] Speaker B: Well, I appreciate your time. I know Keith does. [01:44:35] Speaker A: Absolutely. [01:44:36] Speaker B: Awesome, man. This is a way to spend my Monday evening. So good. Give us. Give us a little plug on. On the book. You mentioned it at the beginning, but. [01:44:48] Speaker C: Tal, the backup catcher. We wrote it back in 2022, me and Tim Brown, and I say we wrote it. If I had written any of it. John gets texts from me all the time, and they have incredible grammatical and spelling errors. So there's. I did none of the writing. Tim Brown is. To me, he's. He's one of the top. One of the top two baseball writers that were out there. He's not doing any. He's not on a. On a beat anymore or anything like that, but he was. He's written some books. He wrote Imperfect by Jim Abbott, and he wrote the. The Rick and Keel book also, but did an incredible job of weaving in stories. It's called the Tao of the Backup Catcher, not Towel Tau, like the Journey of the Backup Catcher. And it just. He interviewed so many different other backup catchers, but it kind of like, it kind of chronicles along with my career and different cool stories that happened in my career. But he. He tied it all together in a way that, like, it's something I'm proud to be able to give to my grandkids one day. You know, something that you can never tell. You can never tell your story about your big league career, but this really hits a lot of different facets of it, a lot of different. You know, what it means to be a backup catcher, how it's like kind of a dissection. It's a small section of society. But if we were all backup catchers and had the backup cat, big league, backup catcher mentality, you know, maybe we'd be a little bit better in life, but it's. I appreciate you bringing that up. It was. I. I feel like he. He freaking killed it. He did an amazing job and it was cool. This. It's cool to say I'm an author even though I wrote none of the book. [01:46:46] Speaker B: Hell yeah, brother. No, that's awesome. And obviously we mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, but. But check out foul territory. It's pretty cool. You guys have some awesome guests, and it's the conversations. It's just good. And I was. When Jonathan reached out and said, hey, would you be interested in having Eric Kratz on? I'm like, he wants to come on our podcast. Like, he would be willing to do that. Sign me up, baby. Let's do this. [01:47:11] Speaker C: So I like talking baseball. [01:47:12] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I think we answered yes in record time. [01:47:17] Speaker C: Let me. Let me vet him. [01:47:19] Speaker D: Let me. [01:47:19] Speaker C: Let me see what he's, what, 209 career hitter? What kind of podcast are we running here, Jonathan? [01:47:26] Speaker D: Well, I said that. [01:47:27] Speaker C: I said. [01:47:27] Speaker D: I said that to you. What did I say to you at the airport? I said, what are you doing? You're flying commercial. You're. I thought you would fly private. You said, yeah, when you hit.209 in the big leagues, you know, you don't fly private. [01:47:39] Speaker C: If I hit.309, oh, my gosh. I would have been on the flight winter. [01:47:44] Speaker D: We would have been on the same flight. [01:47:46] Speaker C: We would have. We would. I would have been. We would have been just drinking mimosas and modelos, just flying back to Philly. [01:47:53] Speaker D: On the other side and the other. Other part of the airport. [01:47:57] Speaker B: Oh, that's too good. But no, I really appreciate your time, man, and thanks again for coming on and. [01:48:06] Speaker C: Yeah, awesome. [01:48:07] Speaker B: Appreciate it. [01:48:08] Speaker C: No doubt. Appreciate you having me on, boys. [01:48:09] Speaker B: All right, thank you for listening, everybody. See you next week. Thank you for listening this week. If you're watching on YouTube, go ahead and hit that subscribe button and smash that, like button for us. Check us out on Apple Podcast podcasts, Google podcasts, as well as Spotify. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram MD Baseball. If you want to find out what me and Keith do to help families and players navigate the recruiting process, go ahead and check us out on emdbaseball.com take a few minutes to check out our new online academy. I promise you'll get some good information out of that. Thanks again for listening. Check in with you next week.