Episode 139: High Academic Baseball & Recruiting w. Jonathan Grosse

[00:00:11] Speaker A: Welcome to this week's edition of Dugout Dish podcast. I'm Andy Kiriakidis, joined by my wonderful co host as usual, Keith Glasser. How we doing, Keith? [00:00:19] Speaker B: Great, how are you? [00:00:21] Speaker A: A little chilly up in Rochester today. Got that nice knit cap on. [00:00:25] Speaker B: It is. It's. [00:00:26] Speaker A: We're. [00:00:27] Speaker B: We're creeping into the. We're creeping down to the, the, the freezing point which is 32 degrees here in, in America. Believe elsewhere it might be zero Celsius. [00:00:39] Speaker A: Zero Celsius, yeah, absolutely. [00:00:43] Speaker B: Well, I don't know what it is in Calvin. Sorry. [00:00:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I can't do that calculation either. We are joined by the. He's now clearly the most frequenting guest on this podcast. A good friend of ours, he's the head coach at Archbishop Carroll High School in the Philadelphia era. He's the founder and director of elite national baseball, former college coach at multiple levels, former Division 2 College World Series pitcher Jonathan Grass. Thanks for coming on, man. [00:01:16] Speaker C: Appreciate you guys having me on again. Love getting to chatted up with you guys. You guys are the best. [00:01:23] Speaker A: Yeah, today will be a good one. We were just kind of briefing it just before we got on here and got going live, but we're going to talk about the intricacies and kind of give the inside baseball on academic recruiting and all three of us were deeply entrenched in the academic recruiting world for the vast majority of our coaching careers, or at least a significant portion of it. So I think we have a pretty unique perspective and a clear understanding of how it works not only at the highest level of academic baseball, but also at the Division 3 level with some of the most prestigious and difficult schools to get into in the country. So looking forward to this one. I think a lot of people will find a lot of value in what we're going to talk about and let's see where this thing takes us. So Jonathan, you want to kick it off? [00:02:16] Speaker B: Sure, yeah. [00:02:17] Speaker C: I mean, you know, I think one of the biggest things and you know, I talked to Andy and Keith about this a lot and you know, one of the biggest things and, and I spent five years in the Ivy League. I was, I was down at firma for two years. So I spent a lot of time, you know, helping guys, you know, get to that next level and obviously, you know, the last three, three and a half years or so, you know, helping guys get to the next level as well, you know, in terms of our teams. But knowing what the ins and outs of high academic recruiting is very, very, very difficult to navigate. And I think one of the toughest things that a lot of people run into is that a lot of people are telling them different things on, hey, if you want to go to an Ivy League school or hey, you want to go to, you know, a high Academic Division 3 school, you know, this is what you have to do. And I think that's, that's super tricky because a lot of times they actually don't know what they're talking about and they don't know what they're, you know, telling you is right. And they have, you know, one experience of one player that they, you know, help place, you know, at an Ivy League school or, you know, a super high academic division three school. And they're, they're just going off of that experience and that's not the case at all. You know, and I know a lot of our guys that, you know, we have, you know, on our teams and stuff like that, they come in and they're, oh, well, you know, hey, I had this idea of this is how I have to get recruited to go to blank school and, or, you know, a group of schools we'll call it. And it's not anywhere near the reality of what they actually need to be doing. And I think that's the hardest part of it. And I think, you know, right out of the shoot, like if you want to play at a high academic school, you need to be around people and you need to surround yourself with people that have recruited at that level, worked at that level, or have a huge list of players that they placed at that level. And placing one player at an Ivy League school or at a Hopkins or an MIT or a Caltech that doesn't qualify as, hey, I know the system in and out because it's very daunting and it's very difficult to get recruited at those schools. That's just the reality of it. [00:04:40] Speaker B: We'll save my bombshell moment of what I think for a little bit, but I think the hardest part for a lot of people who haven't done this and don't really understand what it takes on the academic side is, is how in depth coaches have to go from a transcript class standpoint on top of what they're going to fit. Like, do you fit into that program athletically? Right. Like there's going to be the floor for every single program from an act, from an athletic standpoint. But when we start talking high end academic baseball and you know what it is, is we're talking about the, the Ivy League, the Nescax and you know, STANFORD Hop the RPIs, the Rochesters, the, those types of schools, they're, they're out there. There's an academic stand. There's an academic floor that you're going to have to hit, right? Like, you know, there's this RPI is known for engineering. Like, there's a certain number from a test score in a GPA standpoint that you are not allowed to go below, you know, and even RPI being as selective as it is, like there's other schools out there that are far more selective, you know, so there's a floor, you know, and you'll hear it all the time. I mean, you got the Caltechs and the MIT's of the world that are denying valedictorians at schools. So, you know, there's, there's a lot more that goes into this and it's so veiled as a process. Like, you know, I think what Andy and I like to do, and you know, we've talked about this, Jonathan. Like, this is, this is a lot more of an education that we're trying to get out to people. And the recruiting process is a veiled process. Like you add in high academic and like, there's not a lot of people who really have a true understanding of what it takes for coaches from that recruiting side of things. So, you know, you're right. Like, there's so many little things, and especially I think on the academic side that, that coaches have to deal with that a lot of people don't necessarily realize, go into the types of decisions that they're going to have to make. [00:06:52] Speaker C: I think one of the hardest things too, and I think we'll just get this right off. You know, kind of everyone's played here early. The number one thing that high academic coaches look for that work at high academic schools is can you play and can you help their program? That is the number one most important thing that they have to check the box off of. And I think there's this misconception out there that, hey, I have a 35 act, hey, I have a 1500, I have a 4L, I have 15 honors classes, whatever the case may be. And I'm just going to be entitled to go to those schools because I'm an okay baseball player. And I think that's a hard reality. And you know, and I know it's probably pretty harsh here to kind of get it right off here in the first 10 minutes, but that's the first thing that coaches look for is like just like the player that throws 95 and is 65 but has a 3.0gpa, can't fit at, you know, a Harvard or a Brown or an rpi. The same is to be said about a player that has a 35 act but also isn't good enough to play there. And I think that's a really hard part of the process. But it's like you have to be really, really good at baseball. [00:08:16] Speaker B: You. [00:08:16] Speaker C: To be a really, really good player and have really, really, really good grades to play at some of these top end schools. [00:08:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, we, we're gonna, I'm sure we'll get into the transcript stuff, but Jonathan, you're spot on, man. Like, I think most people have no idea how good you have to be to play in the Ivy League, right? They have no idea how talented you have to be to play at Davidson, to play at Georgetown, to play at gw, to play at never mind Stanford, right? Never mind Stanford, never mind Michigan, you know, never mind University of Virginia, right? But you got to be a BRO to play at William and Mary. You have to be. If you're going to get on the field there and be an impactful player, you need to be really good. It's not. Well, I'm a really smart kid to your point, so I'm entitled to this. Like, yeah. Will your grades help you get into a school that like that and make it accessible to you? Yeah, you, you absolutely have to check that box there is the floor, but those coaches first and foremost. And this goes down to the Nescac, this goes to the University of Rochester. The first box you need to check is are you good enough to help me win? And the level of play to play at any of those schools. You need to be really good to play for Joe Rayna in Rochester. Got to be a really good player, not just a good high school player. You need to be a really good player. And I think one of the best ways I've heard it put, I don't know if it was you, Jonathan, or if it was another coach in the Ivy League, but the way that they put it is like, I don't want an Ivy League student who plays baseball. I need a baseball player who's smart enough to get into an Ivy League school. And I think there's a massive distinction between the two that they're looking for guys who are super committed to playing and excelling on the college, on the college baseball field, but they also just happen to do well enough in school and have checked the boxes. They need to check academically to get in there. Like, you don't you're not pen going into A and M and winning a series. You're not Columbia going to regional finals. You're not pen going to regional finals. You don't do that. You don't compete at that level by getting a bunch of academic first kids. That's the reality of it. They have ballplayers, really, really good ones. [00:10:43] Speaker C: I think you hit the nail on the head, right? Like, you're not Penn going to a regional final. You're not, you know, Columbia, you know, two years ago going to a regional final. You're not, you know, Hopkins being a win away from a national championship. Like, you have to be a really, really good baseball player to play at those types of schools. And I think there's just, you know, just a major misconception of like, hey, I have good grades and I think I might want to play baseball. And it's like, no, the commitment level at those schools is the same commitment level it is across Division 1 and across Division 2 and across Division 3. It's just the grades have to match, you know, Your, your commitment level as well. [00:11:21] Speaker A: The, the other piece I want to hammer home around the competition stuff is that. And I think we run it, I think we run into this more, I have more conversations about this is that they just assume, well, I'm a really good student, I can play to Division 3 school. And it kind of goes back to what we're saying. Like, you don't know how good you have to be there. If that's, if that's your outlook on it, they're like, hey, I'm a really good student. I can go play at Middlebury. Well, immediately I know that you have no idea the type of players that are playing in the NASCAC right now. And that sets you up for failure in the process because there's this assumption that, well, like, I'm a really good student, so those schools must want me to. If you think about the trickle down effect, if you're, if you're a really high academic student athlete, 20 Division 1 schools that you're probably super fired up to go to, right? You got Patriot Leagues, you got Davidson, you know, gw, Georgetown, Ivy Leagues. Like, the list is pretty small. And if academics is what's driving your process and you don't get recruited by one of those schools, which is hard enough as it is, that trickle down effect into the Nescac, all those kids who were just short for those schools are playing in the Nescac or playing at Rochester or Johns Hopkins or, you know, one of those other elite academic schools of Swarthmores like Emory, Wash U, Chicago. Like, those are the kids who were populating those rosters. So think of it as like the kids who were just short for the Ivy League. That kid's pitching at toughs and when he's a junior, that kid can pitch in the Ivy League. And that's what you're up against. And I think there's a big gap in knowledge there that like, well, I'm smart. I can go play Division 3 because I'm smart. It just, it's just not how it works. It's super, super competitive. [00:13:14] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, there's a reason why a lot of high end Division 3 schools are. You will see them at the Ivy League camps, right? Like, I mean, I worked Brown camp when Jonathan was there and I was still coaching. I work Columbia camp every year. You know, I know a lot of coaches go to Harvard, Dartmouth camp. You know, there's a lot of, you know, you can get a lot of guys out of those camps. You know, I think, Andy, you and I were having this conversation recently. There was a. I could be a tad bit wrong, but I believe you, like one of the best guys you got out of Vassar or at Vassar was at a Dartmouth camp that not a lot of people were on, you know, because that, you know, for, for a couple different reasons. One, the Ivy Leagues draw obviously nationally. Right. Like, there's, there's only so many kids that are going to have good enough grades to get in and also be good enough athletically to be able to play at the Division 1 level. You know, so as Division 3 guys, like, you know, if they can check the box where, you know, you are going to be competitive from an academic standpoint at an Ivy, like they're going to be competitive at a, at your school, by and large. Right. You know, and now you just got to figure out whether or not that kid's going to be able to, you know, that that's why those camps are big four, Division three guys. Because for the most part, like, I know this kid is going to be competitive in the admissions process, bare minimum. Now I can lock in and figure out whether or not he's going to help me win and be. And then can he fit into my program? You know, I think that that's, it's why, you know, a lot of guys want to go work, recruit out of those camps as well. It's the same reason why Headfirst and show ball in those camps are, are big because for the Most part, like the, the grades are there, so it's one, it's a piece of the, the pie that you don't really have to worry about. It's more, can this kid help me win? And what does he look like against other potential Division 1 and Division 3 student athletes? You know, so I, it's, it's, you know, my thing and I've said this, this is the first time I'm going to say this on here and it's going to probably, if we have SEC listeners and things, it's going to rub them the wrong way. But like, I honestly believe that it, like it's more exclusive to play Division 1 baseball in the Ivy League than it is in any other conference in the country. Like there's eight teams. They, they roll in. [00:15:46] Speaker C: Maybe you're not, it's, it's not an opinion. It is, that is a fact. [00:15:51] Speaker B: But it's there, there's what? There's. They average about eight kids a class. Like you're talking about 64 kids a year that are in a recruiting class that are going to play in the Ivy League. [00:16:00] Speaker A: 64. And they're not cycling and they're not cycling through them when they get on campus. No, this isn't a, hey man, you weren't good enough, see you later type of situation. Like that's a four year commitment, right? [00:16:12] Speaker B: You, like, you, you will be there for like the only way that it doesn't work is that if you decide that you want to transfer out and go somewhere else. And let's be honest, the vast majority, like if you're, if you're playing at Brown, Columbia, Penn, like you're staying and getting the education. Like it, that's generally what you're going to be doing, you know, so like it's, there's 64 kids in the senior class that are going to be playing college baseball that are going to go play in the Ivy League. Like that's, it's more exclusive than any other conference in the country. Like, it does not matter. It, that is like you have to be good enough. And Columbia was in a regional final two years ago. They were in a regional final I think a couple years before that. Penn was in a regional final last year. Like it is really, really good baseball. Harvard has a good baseball team. Princeton had a good run last year. Like they're, it's really, really competitive baseball in the Ivy League. They go down and they beat some really good teams over the course of the year. It's not, you know, it's not you know, and you said it. Andy and Carl, you say it all the time when I played coach for him and rpi. Like, we're looking for baseball players who happen to be smart. We're not looking for smart kids who also play baseball. And there's a distinct difference in that. And that's where, you know, like, you get those kids in the Ivy League and you get them at Tufts and you get them at Hopkins. I mean, Hopkins, you know, was one win away from being a national champion last year. I mean, it's a really, really good school and it's really tough to get into academically, you know, so like it's the, the baseball that's being played at the high academic level is so good and super competitive, you know, and you mentioned it. The, the gws, the Georgetowns, the David. I mean, Davidson is a really, really good program. Rutgers, Rutger's got a really good program down there. I mean they got dudes, you know, the Notre Dame's, the world. You know, there's guys at these levels that are at. And you know, Stanford, we had C.J. on like a couple years ago. I think pre covered like they were identifying kids as freshmen and sophomores to get them academically prepared to be admitted. Like that's that like they, they'd already identified those kids at a young age and being like, okay, this is what we're going to do academically to make sure that you're going to get in. In. I mean, Stanford's been in Omaha the last two years. Wake. Wake is another prime example. Wakes a really good academic school. They were in Omaha last year. Like, they're, those dudes are. Not only are they super smart, they're unbelievably talented athletically. And it's like what goes into those decisions. Like it's, you know, you need to actually be able to play at that level while also being able to handle it academically because, you know, I heard Soup say it and Tish and Jonathan and Coach Brady, like, you're going to get your ass kicked in the classroom. Like, you have to be able to handle it academically and also athletically because it's, it's going to be. It's a tough four years on both ends and, and you're going to be competitive on both sides. Like you're, you're gonna like, it's a, it's a special kid that, that gets recruited into those, those types of programs. And you know, I stand by that. It's, it's more exclusive than playing in any Other, any other conference in the country. [00:19:18] Speaker A: Agreed. [00:19:19] Speaker B: Well, we can't end the podcast on that. [00:19:24] Speaker A: I mean, yeah, that. It really is like when you, when you break it down, simple math. It, it's the most selective pocket of Division 1 baseball is to play in the Island. [00:19:36] Speaker C: Let me, let me run with this real quick. [00:19:38] Speaker A: Go. [00:19:39] Speaker C: So there's 14 teams in the SEC, right. So everybody in the country, every, almost every kid in the entire country, if you said to them, what conference do you want to play? And they want to play in the sec. Right. I mean, it's, we did the, the super regional picks. We did our Omaha picks. Right. Like, it's littered with SEC schools. They're in Omaha. They're. They're at the end. They're hosting the whole deal. The best atmospheres, you know, 10,000 people plus a night. [00:20:05] Speaker A: It's. [00:20:05] Speaker C: It's the prime. It's, it is the top of the, you know, the top of the iceberg. Right. Fourteen schools before Texas and Oklahoma come in, obviously, on July 1st this year. Fourteen schools, roughly. And I'm going to be very conservative here, and I'm going to say 10 players per school will go to each school. Okay, so 10 players, so that's 140 players. He's just broken down at 64 are going to play in the Ivy League. Again, very conservative number of 10 in the SEC. Freshmen will get recruited. We'll go to those schools. That's 160. Or, I'm sorry, 140. There's only 60 going to the Ivy League. 65 going to the Ivy League. That's almost two and a half times the amount of players to go to the sec. Which, when you ask most people, what's the prime, what's the cream of the crop is the sec. And you're talking about, you know, two and a half times the amount of players that will play in the SEC as freshmen as opposed to in the Ivy League. It's a huge number. It's the most selected league in the world. It's not even close. There's nothing even in the area code of it. [00:21:21] Speaker A: Well, I think the roster turnover is another piece, too. [00:21:23] Speaker B: Like. [00:21:26] Speaker A: Ivy League, it's eight guys a year and you're not really losing. There's not a ton of attrition that doesn't happen because of graduation. Right. Like, we've seen the posts. Not going to call anybody out. Like, you'll look at it on Twitter. You got some teams and for different reasons, but you have established programs, good programs. Right, that are bringing in 25 new faces this year. Right. Like the roster turnover at the back end of those, those SEC schools, the churn is going to be significant because of the new transfer rule. If you're a guy, number 38 on that roster, why would you stay? Right. Like you're never going to play. And a lot of those kids figure that out early and they leave. So I think, and what I'm getting at is I think your number is incredibly conservative. I think it's, I think there's way more roster, maybe not way more, but I think there's probably closer to 15 kids, new faces every single year minimum coming into the sec. [00:22:29] Speaker C: Well, that's only freshman. Yeah, we're not even talking about the transfer portal now. [00:22:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Which is my, my pressure culture. [00:22:38] Speaker C: You're right. With 15, Miami closer to 20 new, you know, like. [00:22:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's exclusive as hell. And I think what we're driving at is that the exclusivity, the level of play in that league at those schools that we've mentioned at the Division 1 level, you have to be really good to play there. And then you also have to be academic. It's not the other way around. It's not, I'm a grade student, so I can go play at Harvard. No, you need to be good enough to play at Harvard and then you also need to be a fantastic student. [00:23:17] Speaker C: And I think, you know, just driving home the fact like you have to understand the process of those schools with, you know, the admission slots, the, you know, the, the non academic money, like, you know, with, you know, most obviously in the Ivy League, but like the Division 3 schools as well, but like understanding, like what is those processes, like to be recruited at those schools, you have to be around people that understand that process because it's an extremely daunting process if you don't know what you're doing and you're just saying, hey, I want to go to this school. I think this is what I want to do. [00:23:58] Speaker A: Let's hit on that a little bit because we've all seen it from various types of schools. You've seen it at Brown, you've seen it at Furman. I've seen it at Basser, one of the best liberal arts schools at the Division 3 level. He's seen it at RPI, one of the most exclusive engineering schools in the world. Talk a little bit about that because this is, this is another veiled thing. Like I've sat in a room with the admissions people when they make decisions on transcripts that they bring and oftentimes the decisions don't make a ton of sense on paper, but it's because the school and the admissions department, it's just not as cut and dry as this kid is good enough to play baseball here. And here's what his transcript looks like. And it checks most of the boxes. Like, it's a little more complex than that, a little bit more nuanced. [00:24:47] Speaker C: Yeah, it's tricky. It's really tricky. You know, like, where are you from? How many kids go to your high school? Are you at a private school? You're at a public school? You know, I think you, like, you said it best, right? It's like, you know, it's not just cut and dry of like, hey, here's the transcript. Hey, you know, we think he can pitch here. We think he's going to be our starting shortstop. It's. There's more that goes into it. You know, how many applicants are coming from that school? You know, what's the mean gpa? How many, you know, what's the mean, you know, total amount of AP classes? What. How does that compare against what, you know, what your, you know, body of work is as a student? There's a lot that goes into it, you know, in terms of, you know, different things that, you know, people might not understand of, like, hey, I'm a 40 student from Blank High school and, you know, I'll definitely get into that school. You know, I have a, you know, 35 act or a 1550, you know, sat, and I'm going to easily be an applicant. And there's just more that goes into it in terms of, like, the subjective part of it is, like, sitting in those meetings and, you know, I mean, we had a. We had a student athlete one time from the middle of the country who, you know, applied. He wasn't. He wasn't a supported student athlete, you know, for the Ivy League, but from the middle of the country at a perfect ace, perfect ACT score, four zero. And we're like, this is a slam dunk. And, you know, admissions looked at it was like, well, you know, we got a lot of other kids that are going to be, you know, pretty similar to this. So this is going to probably be a no. And that's hard. You know, it's hard. And it's hard not understanding, you know, how that works because there's just so much subjective things that go into it. And just like, when I was at Brown, just like when I was at Furman, just like Annie, when you were at Vassar and, you know, William And Mary and Keith was at rpi, like, each admissions department has certain things that they, you know, quantify as really important and other admissions department might not quantify that as super important. And that's the hard part in terms of, like, the process and knowing, like, all right, well, what schools, you know, are valuing certain things higher than other things because each admissions department, at the end of the day is going to value certain things more than other admissions departments. And that's the tricky part in the entire process. [00:27:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I remember having a conversation with the admissions director of Vassar, and to your point, it's the insight into how they evaluate. Everybody's a little bit different. But I remember having the conversation about a kid who went to a really prestigious high school out in Los Angeles. We had established a relationship with a few kids out of that school in previous years, and this kid was probably the best one out of all of them. He was going to be our number one ranked kid in the class. And we sat down with the admissions department and were like, hey, we think this kid's going to apply early decision. If we can get him an answer of yes, they start running through it. And a simple response, to make a long story short was, Listen, he's ranked 19th in his class right now, which is great by just about everybody standards, but we're going to have seven kids who are ranked higher than him probably apply to this school early decision. And half of them are going to get denied. We can't accept that kid. And that was a pretty eye opening moment early on, coaching at a high academic school, realizing that if that kid had gone to a different high school, he probably gets in. But going to that prestigious high school, and this might ruffle some feathers, but sometimes going to those prestigious high schools, it actually can hurt you in the process with some of these really elite academic schools, which, I mean, shoot, we could talk about that for a while, but it is an interesting process and it's not straightforward. Keith, I know you got some good stories from RPI where probably getting some answers that you didn't expect and just understanding how difficult it is to get kids in. [00:28:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think the, you know, the kind of, the elite kind of high school that, you know, you just mentioned, like, it's. I learned early on when I was at rpi, like my first year or two, you know, not to necessarily say that I would, I'd stay away from some of them. But, you know, it was to your point, like it was, if you get the transcript and it's, you're like middle to bottom end academically at those schools, like for the same, like it's going to be really hard to admit somebody who you know is likely without baseball would be denied. You know, and it's, it is, it's, it's a reality in some admissions departments, you know, and everyone's different. We can't necessarily sit here and say it's a blanket statement for everybody in every school, but it is, it is a reality. You know, if you're the, if you're ranked 70th out of 80 kids and 10 kids are going to apply and they're all ahead of you, some of them are going to get denied, you know, so from an admissions standpoint, it's hard for them to justify saying that we're going to take, you know, number 70 and deny 20 through 40, regardless of how good you are at baseball, you know, so it's, you know, there were, you know, I tried to, I'll be honest, I tried to avoid them in, in some instances because it was, it was easier in, from a recruiting standpoint. And, and look, I think the one thing to kind of to, to really drive this point home is that when you're recruiting at a high end academic school, like you are recruiting nationally, right? Like, even like the Ivies, it's, it's, it's obvious, you know, but if you like, you can go look at RPI's roster, you can go look at Rochester, you can go look at Middlebury, mit, Davidson, Georgetown, like they're, you're going to see dudes from the west coast, you're going to see guys from the Southeast, you're going to see the Mid Atlantic and Northeast and New England. Like they're, they're, they're coming from all over because you need to be able to have that reach from an academic standpoint because it is tough to get in there. There's only so many guys regionally. And I, you know, I used to draw the comparison like when we played at Marist, like, and it's nothing against Marist. I love Marist in that, you know, when. Well, hopefully we're, we're, we're really good this year. But you know, it's generally speaking like you're going to be recruiting regionally. Like it's New England, it's Northeast, Mid Atlantic. Like, you know, you're not really drawing a ton of guys from the Midwest and the Southeast and California. Just, just, you're just not, it's the reality of what it is, you know, but when you enter into that high academic world, you have to understand that you're up against, not only athletically, but academically, people from all over the country. Like, you're, you have to be good in, in both aspects. And that's where I think, you know, like Jonathan said earlier, having somebody who in your corner has kind of been through that process before to understand what that is and what that looks like is, is paramount for you. Because, you know, if you have one guy who played at Harvard, you know, I know Kevin Rogers, when he was with the Dodgers, he had a. There's a kid, I think he ended up playing at Georgetown, but Harvard showed up. This is years ago. Like, before I played, I believe Harvard showed up and they're like, yeah, we can't get him into school. Kevin was, he was like a 1500. Kevin's like, I'll never have another kid as smart as him. Like, you don't, you guys don't have to come back. Like, but like, you know, it's, you know, it's a reality that, like, that doesn't get into something like, you're not going to be able to get that kid in, in some instances. So, you know, having somebody who's kind of been through that process and knows what it, knows what it looks like at the high academic world and where you can potentially stack up is, is huge for you. If that's the route you, you know, if that's the route you're looking to go to get a phenomenal education while also being competitive. You know, I think the, the other caveat to it is, you know, especially at the Division 3 level, where, you know what one of the selling points I always had is, like, you're, you're going to get a world class education and then you're going to compete nationally. Like, we're, we're at the Division 3 level. Like, we're looking to make a regional and a super regional and get to the World Series. I mean, Hopkins did it and Catholic was in the World Series two years ago at a super high end academic school. Like, it's. Middlebury is really good. Ithaca made a run. You know, Rogers made a run a couple years ago. Like, it's, you can be super competitive at that level with high academic guys, you know, but again, to the original point that, you know, Jonathan kind of kicked this off with, like, you have to be good athletically and then you also have to be good academically to even be recruited or be recruitable at that level. [00:34:00] Speaker A: Swarthmore is the other one that comes to mind. Didn't Mitty had them in the World Series a couple of years back, didn't he? [00:34:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:07] Speaker A: Yep. They made a heck of a run with my man Dan Gosofsky helping out with the, the pitching staff. [00:34:13] Speaker B: Gus. [00:34:14] Speaker A: Gus, man. Yeah. I mean, Jonathan, you got anything to add on kind of the admissions piece? Like you had a really unique look at it at Brown in with like when I was at Ambassador, we didn't have slots. Right. Like we could kind of rank guys in terms of priority, but we didn't have like an A band or a B band, which I know they have in an S Cat. I know that I've at least got the AI the academic index, but anything that you can publicly share, I'm sure would be appreciated by the crowd. [00:34:49] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously, you know, it's, it's not super secretive. The, the AI of the, you know, the Ivy League is basically, every player is also ranked and then is basically given a number, a number that assigns them academically. So whatever their, you know, GPA is, you know, combo to their test score or if they're a test optional kid, they're given a, you know, a specific number. And then each team within the Ivy League needs to maintain a certain number based on the athletic department's value or whatever they deem as acceptable for that individual program, if that makes sense. So they have, the athletic department itself has to maintain an average and then each team has to maintain an average and that's based on your athletic department. So the AI at Penn could be the, could be different than the AI Brown for baseball. Just in layman's terms, the AI at, you know, Columbia cross country could be different than the AI for Dartmouth cross country. This is kind of how it works. But each player then once you are a supported student athlete, you go, you know, you'll get, you know, your okays and you'll get your guys that you're going to be able to get in based, you know, the number will be based on again, admission slots. Each athletic department is given a certain amount of, you know, admission slots and they divvy them out between each, you know, athletic, you know, each individual athletic program. And then you're ranked by a number, you know, and, and 15, 50, that's right handed pitcher that throws, you know, 90 is going to be super valuable because you're going to be ranked super high. And then you're able to get in a player that may be ranked a little bit lower in terms of the AI number, you know, later in the process. So you Know, a lot of times you'll see, you know, Ivy League schools try to go after kids early on in the process that are, you know, super high AIs, just because it'll help them get, you know, maybe a specific position later in the process that's a little bit lower. Very, very, very. Like it's not very, very, very common to understand, is very common for people to think that they understand it, but it's, there's way more, you know, depth to kind of what I'm saying and the way I'm explaining it. Then, you know, you can just kind of pop on and say, oh, I'm gonna be this AI. You know, we, we, we used to laugh all the time. We would get emails and say, you know, kids would say, hey, you know, Coach, I'm gonna be a, you know, 218ai. And we would be like, how do you know? Like first off, you're, you're not even close. And number two, like, how would you even go about, you know, don't spend your time trying to figure out what AI you are. Do a really good job of getting really good grades in the classroom. Get the highest test score you can, you know, you can get if you're going to take the test and you know, let kind of the baseball stuff, you know, sort itself out. But so many people try to like learn and read and try to figure out the AI and it's, it's, there's so much more that goes to it than, than I can explain, you know, right here for even five or ten minutes. Just be really good in school, try to get a really good test, score the best you can get and be as good as you can at baseball and let the rest sort itself out. [00:38:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the one thing to kind of hammer home your point too is that the AI in the Ivy League, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my pretty good understanding of it, is one of the most, if not the most well kept secrets amongst programs and schools in the Ivy League. And I say that because you're an extremely close friend of ours and Eric, who is an extremely close friend of ours as well, both coach in the Ivy League. I have absolutely no idea what the AIs are for Columbia or Brown baseball. And I, like, I'll never know and I'm fine with that. And like I've, I coached College Baseball for 16 years and 10 of them were at a super high end academic school. Like you're, if, if people in the business have no idea what it is like, you're not going to be able to figure it out because it's not Keith. [00:39:38] Speaker A: Right? [00:39:38] Speaker C: Like, Eric's one of my best friends too. Like, just like the, all of us are. I have no idea what Columbia's AI was. [00:39:46] Speaker A: Right. [00:39:46] Speaker C: No, right. [00:39:49] Speaker A: The best, the best part is all. [00:39:51] Speaker B: The time we used to joke all the time because we'd see grades and Jonathan, Eric would be like, ah, that's their high guy. But you have, you literally have, like, like, I, I, I, I've known Eric for 20 years. Like, Eric was in my wedding. I, I have no idea. And he spent seven, eight years at Columbia. Like, I have no idea what their AI is now. I also, like, I, I also know that, like, I would never ask that, but I also know, like, he's not telling me. So it, like, it doesn't, if, if we don't, if coaches outside of the Ivy League in those programs don't know what it is. Like you, as somebody who's trying to get recruited has, like, you're not going to be able to figure it out. You literally have no idea. So they're like, again, to your point, like, there's no point in even attempting to figure this out because you're, you're not, you're not going to be close. [00:40:44] Speaker C: Just get really good grades, be really good at baseball. [00:40:46] Speaker B: Right. [00:40:47] Speaker A: Correct me if I'm wrong, Jonathan, but like, you don't have any say in the AI. Like, you pass that to admissions and they tell you what the number is. Kids are 221. [00:41:00] Speaker C: And the other part of it too is that like, there's certain, like, you could, you could roll like kind of like what you were saying before Andy, with that, you know, transcripts and stuff like that. Like, you could roll a kid in at, you know, let's say whatever, a 210 and be like, yeah, I think this is a slam dunk. But he had 2Ds as a sophomore. And then they're like, well, even though he's a 210, he actually now we're not, we, we can't accept them. So like, there's also that part of it too that you know, like, or, hey, like he's a, you know, whatever, 205 or 215, whatever you want to call the number is. But you know, we don't love the rigor of the, of the transcript. So we're not, so he's not admittable. So there's also that part of it too where it's like, if there's no, there's no science to it because it's. They can just. The admissions can look at it and kind of like what I was saying before, like, well, what each school, you know, in each admissions department thinks is important. There also could. They could also look at a transcript and say blank is wrong with it. And then even though, yeah, he's really good, he got good grades. Yeah, he's got a really good test score, but there's blank missing. And he's not, he's not admittable. So you can't use them as a, as a, as an emission slot. So it doesn't even matter what his AI is. [00:42:17] Speaker A: Yeah, it's, it's wild. [00:42:19] Speaker B: Like. [00:42:21] Speaker A: Coaches, like, you have a pretty good idea, but you never sitting there with 100 certainty like, that kid's getting in until you get the check mark. Until you get it back. Yeah, like, you always got to look at the transcript and. [00:42:39] Speaker C: And you're right, dude. Like, don't get me wrong. Like, you got a pretty good idea. Like, you know, very rarely did we get, you know, a flat out no, you know, we would get, hey, adjust this. Hey, add, you know, an AP class, stuff like that. Like, you have a pretty good idea of doing it. And Eric obviously did the same thing, and Dan and, you know, whoever else you guys have had that's working, the Ivy Leaguer, you got a pretty good idea, you know, especially, you know, I was there for five years and, you know, me and Mac were there together for five years. So, like, we had a pretty good idea. Like, we could look at a transcript and be like as close like we can, we can at least submit it. But you never really know. Like, you don't really know until it's submitted. Like, and that's the reality of it. [00:43:20] Speaker A: I, I never sent it. I never said a transcript because we, we got a kid who's going to Columbia. He'll be there next fall. So, you know, obviously we know Tish and Eric and you know, when we were there and not one time did they respond with, yeah, that kid's good. It was always like, that looks competitive. Let me run it up the pole and like, and get an idea where he's at. But the funny thing is that the phone call always came after they knew how kid, how good the kid was. And then it was, hey, get me his transcript. I want to check. It was never transcript. Then tell me about the player. Kind of going back to what we were saying, it was always, that kid's really good. Is he in the ballpark? And I You know, we would answer with like, yeah, I think he's. He's worth running the transcript up. Like, it's pretty close for what you guys might need. And then they would go do their jobs and figure out if the kid was admissible or not. But, yes, there's a lot to it. [00:44:16] Speaker C: I. I mean, I had a kid this. We had a kid this year, like, really good players, Division 1 player, like, really good. And so they saw him play, you know, Tish was still at. At Columbia at the time and saw him playing was like, hey, can you give me the transcript? But like you said, like always, hey, what kind of player is he? I like him. Hey, send me the transfer. Let me see if this works. And it ended up not working with the transcript, which is fine. You know what I mean? And that happens. But it was always, what type of player is he? Oh, let me check the grades out, you know, And I think, again, that's the biggest part of this, you know, in terms of the academic world, is it's like, you gotta be really, really, really good. And it's super, super, super competitive to play at those types of schools that you want to play at. [00:45:04] Speaker A: I want to get to some of the exposure stuff, but I just thought of this. The other thing that adds a wrinkle to the whole Ivy League and, you know, Patriot League and some of these high academic schools is that you don't. You don't get a lot of wiggle room to mess up. You've got limited spots. So you need to be really thoughtful about how you build your roster. And I think that that gets lost in the shuffle time sometimes, too, because you can't. You can't use a spot on a kid if it doesn't fit with how you have to build your roster. Like, you can't always just take good players. You have to be a little bit more measured about how you construct your roster. Like, you can't take two catchers in a year that you need to get an extra arm. Like, you have to make some decisions on how you build things, like, to get your thoughts on that. [00:45:57] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's one of the hardest parts of this, especially the high academic world, is like, you know, and I think you hit on earlier about, like, the turnover and stuff like that when we were talking about the numbers. You know, you can't just bring in three catchers and a guy doesn't work out, and you just bring in another guy that you know or two guys the next year. Like, it doesn't work that way. So there are going to be years that certain schools don't need catchers. They're going to be years that, you know, certain schools don't need outfielder, you know, an outfielder, or they only need a left handed hitting outfielder, or they only need a, you know, outfitter who can really run. And it's like, hey, that can be your dream school. But the reality is, is that they're also, you know, kind of confined into what they're able to bring in. And if they can't bring it in, or they went early on a guy in the fall or whatever the case may be, they went, you know, they went and got a guy that they liked, you know, earlier on in the process. It doesn't matter what your grades are, how good of a player you are, they might not be able to take you, you know, and that's not to be. That's not the case in the acc. That's not the case in the sec. It's not the case, you know, in the, you know, rest in peace, PAC12. But like, you know, that they can just go and say, oh, all right, well, yeah, we brought this catcher and we brought Keith in, but Andy's way better. Like, we'll just go, we'll just bring him in too and then we'll just figure it out when, you know, when they get to campus. Like, that's not the case, you know, for these, you know, academic school. So like, it's hard. And I think the flexibility part of it, you know, as a, as a prospective student athlete and as a family, like, you have to be super flexible about that because the reality is, is that they're probably only taking one catcher a year, maybe two at most. They're probably only taking, you know, two to three infielders a year at most. You know, they're going to take one or two outfitters a year. Like, there's not a lot of spots there. So like to just say, like, oh, well, I want to go to Brown. That's my dream school. That's where I want to go. Well, if we three catchers on the roster and we're not bringing a catcher in in 2025, you don't need to go to prospect camp because it doesn't matter how good you are, ultimately they don't have wiggle room to just say, well, we'll just bring them in anyway. It doesn't work that way. So it's super hard. It's, you know, it's like, you know, it's like a chess game of like understanding the Academics, understanding, obviously the athletic piece. But now also you have to throw into like what the roster needs are and like, well, we're bringing back three catchers. I only have 32 guys in the roster. Like, can I really bring in a fourth catcher? Can I truly take the best available player? Sometimes, but there's also a lot of times you can't. And you could have the best catcher in the world whose dream school is Brown. And if you don't have a spot or you took a catcher already in his class, like, there's probably not much you can do because you don't really have the roster flexibility that these other schools have. So it's hard. [00:49:05] Speaker A: I mean, break down the eight, right? We'll ballpark it at eight in terms of slots, right. If you're going to be competitive in a 40 game Ivy League season and you're going to go on and do some damage in the, in the NCAA tournament, it's going to be tough to be good if you don't have at least 16 arms on campus. Which means you need to bring in four of them every year. [00:49:30] Speaker C: If you're going to break down, I'll give you around about eight, right? Four arms, a catcher, two infielders and an outfitter. And basically every other year you can take the second infield slot and make it a utility slot. So you can make it an infield slash outfield slot. [00:49:47] Speaker A: You know, take a good athlete and figure it out when he gets there type of thing. [00:49:51] Speaker C: Yeah, because you still gotta first baseman into it. Like, you know, like in those years that you're bringing two infielders in, like somebody's gotta play the corners. Like, I mean, you know, obviously you. But somebody gotta play first base, you know, and if you play at a place like Columbia, like, you're gonna want it done to be left handed. Like. And even at Brown, like we wanted, we really wanted right handers because, you know, short porch or you know, the left. So like each school's got things that are, they can value. Like, all right, well, you know, Columbia can take a guy that, you know, maybe can bop it because smaller park, you know, winds usually blown out. You know, we're at a place like Yale. Like you probably want to be, you know, that extra guy. You want to get a guy who can run. But like, again, like, you know, like there's just so much to it that there's like, you can't just say like blank is what happens. You know what I mean? Like, I just gave you like, hey, this is what you would do with eight players. And I'm already, you know, kind of counteracting myself, right, of like, oh, well, you know, you know, Columbia could think of bop and, you know, yeah, once again, whatever it is. But, like, there's just so much that goes into it. There's so much subjectivity to it. It's. It's so hard. [00:51:04] Speaker A: It's that minutiae and it's the detail that if you haven't been involved in it, if you don't know those coaching staffs, if you've never seen that conference play, if you don't understand the academic portion, if you don't know how the rosters get constructed, like, if you miss any of those pieces, you're acting with incomplete information. How do you get in front of these guys? I think that's probably the next big question that, that anybody who's listening to this wants to understand. Like, all right, I'm a good player. I got really good grades. What are some of the best ways that I can use my time, my effort if I'm going to take ownership of the process as a high school player? How do I get in front of these guys, and what are some of the best ways to do it? I agree. [00:51:56] Speaker C: I'll be honest with you guys, and I'm super biased, and obviously I love you guys, but, like, if you're not, and I know I started with this earlier, but, like, if you're not with somebody that knows the process of these schools, if you're not with somebody, and that's whether they're, you know, obviously an advisor helping you through the process or, you know, your travel coach, but if you're not with somebody that knows the process in and out, just saying that I'm going to go to these camps and go to these high academic, you know, events, it's very, very, very difficult unless you're extremely, extremely talented and you can really stand out in a, you know, in a big crowd of 250 kids or 150 kids or 300 kids, whatever it is, like, you need to be with somebody that understands, like, how do you place players, you know, at the next level? How do you put them in front of schools at the next level? And just playing on a team and saying you're going to go to two $1200 camps at the end of July and early August, you're setting yourself up for failure. Just the reality of it. [00:53:10] Speaker A: Yeah, no doubt about it. I mean, I think if you're an Ivy League coach, right, and that's the pinnacle of kind of the high academic, you only got eight spots. You need to get to know these kids, right? Because if you're going to miss on talent, that's one thing, right? Because you're never going to get everybody, right. It's just the reality of it. Somebody's going to get hurt or a kid's going to get to college and the speed's going to be a little bit too much. You never get a class right. But the one thing you want to do the best you possibly can is figure out who these kids are in those on campus camps. The longer term interactions. Getting a chance to see a kid play actual games and not just showcase like that's really valuable from a coaching perspective. I think it's particularly valuable in the academic world where you just don't have the leeway to make mistakes. Like, and to your point, going to one show ball tournament and thinking that you're going to get recruited by Harvard, like, it's probably a little bit naive. Like you probably need to have somebody in your corner who can tell you, hey, you do fit at this level and this is how we need to get you in front of them. There's a team that does academic targeted events, right? Or you go to Harvard's camp and we talk to the coaching staff to figure out, hey, do you fit or do you not? But you can't, to your point, just think you're going to throw money at it and solve it because it's just you're going to, you're going to end up throwing $1,200 away without having a plan and without executing that plan for sure. [00:54:49] Speaker C: And it's just, there's, there's too many kids there. There's, you know, you need to have somebody that can, you know, make a call and say, hey, you know, check my guy out or hey, you're one of my best friends. We talk, you know, four times a week, five times a week. Like I'm telling you about this player because I legitimately think that this kid could play at your level. Not, hey, I'm just going to show up at this event and I hope that it works. And you know, you call me or you call, you know, us, you know, after, and you go, I made a huge mistake. And I, you know, kind of went through the process and went through the summer and had no idea what I was doing. And now I need to kind of restart my entire thing. [00:55:34] Speaker A: And we have had that happen. [00:55:37] Speaker C: Me too. [00:55:41] Speaker A: Excuse me. I haven't had issues here. What do you think of the camps? You're at Brown, right. We saw somebody post the other day. Me and Keith talk about it, Saw somebody post the other day that they on campus camps are just a big money grab to fund the assistance. I know that to be patently false, but let's hear from a former Ivy League coach and the value that you get out of those camps. [00:56:07] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's totally false. It's not even. It's totally false. I'll just put it that way. Especially now with the extended, you know, quiet period. You know, if and I'll put a big if and and I tell all of our kids this too, that you know, that play for us and you know, within our organization. Like if you're ready to showcase yourself in the winter and you are good enough to play at those schools, then you should go to those camps in the winter. Because with late fall, whatever, winter, but like basically anything post quiet period, we'll call it. So post, you know, October, I think it was ninth this year. Then you should go to those camps. If you're going just for an experience and like, I hope they follow me, you're wasting your time. But if you're good enough in that quiet period to potentially play at that school. I had two guys go this weekend to a camp that are close. They might not be good enough, I don't know, but they're close. It's worth your time to go to it because they're making this. That's the only place they can make decisions. They're not leaving campus. They can't go anywhere. They have to sit at home. So the only way to see the players that they want to recruit is, is on campus. So it's not a waste of money. If you're good enough, if you're going to hopefully for them, for you to, for them to follow you, it's a waste of time. But if you're legitimately good enough and you think that you can legitimately play there at that time, then it's phenomenal. Never mind the fact that there's camps that are, you know, maybe close to your house that, you know, you can go through, you know, eight weeks of hitting, you know, clinics on, you know, on a Monday night and, you know, you hit on the, under the lights or, you know, at the stadium or whatever. And their development camps too, those are huge this time of the year. You know, you're not playing games, you're able to develop so like this idea of like, oh, it's a waste of time to go to, you know, on campus camps because they're just paying the assistance is. It's ludicrous, to be honest with you. [00:58:24] Speaker B: The other thing too that I think is to add on to that is if you're with the extended rule that you can't talk to anyone until August 1st going into their junior year, like if you're a 2027 right now and you know, 2026, like if you're close, like you need to know or someone needs to tell you you're close, um, you know, but even if you're a 27, like you could save the money of going to the whatever camp. Not just, not because it's a waste of your time but because you could spend that money on a gym membership or a development type thing like you were just talking about. That's going to get you further along because you can go to that camp next year as a sophomore in the winter and show and showcase yourself in likely a better spot than you are as a 14 year old freshman in the winter, depending on what you've, you know, kind of done to that point. But you know, I think the, you know it is, is dispelling the myth of like it's not, it's not a complete waste of time or money but like you, you need to be, you know, and Andy said it and you're driving at it like you need to be recruitable or at least close to where they're going to want to follow you coming out of that camp because they're like, they can't, the second you leave campus, they can't talk to you again until you go to another camp on their campus. You know, so it's, you know, it's, it's figuring out whether or not it's going to be worth it for you from getting that follow standpoint that early in the process, you know, and is the 150. What's that? [01:00:07] Speaker C: I'm going to, I'm going to add one more to that. So I had a guy, we had a guy last summer, he went, he was a, he's a 2026 grad and he's really good, really good. And, and we took him to WBA with us and we went down and I, I sent a video to a friend of ours, you guys all know, who's an ACC assisted. And I was like, hey man, what do you think? And his text back to me was, you know, let me know if he's that good next year and I'll. And we'll be in touch. [01:00:43] Speaker A: I got the same response from, from a different ACC coach, same exact thing. Like, yeah man, like just keep me posted, like, let me know if he continues to get better. [01:00:56] Speaker C: Like that was literally the text was like, yeah man, I trust you. Like, let me know if he says next year. If he's this good, then we'll be in touch. I'm like, okay, but like you said, Keith, like you're, you know, like as a 20, 27, right? Like you're more valuable to go to spend, you know, go to a gym membership or you know, go to, you know, a tread or a driveline or whatever. Just, you know, continue to develop and get as good as you possibly can get. But you don't need to spend time on these quote unquote follows. Like the one thing I tell our guys all the time, this is a what have you done for me lately? Business. Nobody cares what you are now and then they hope you are, you know, later. What are you, what, what are you currently right now? That's what they're evaluating you on. That's just the reality of it. [01:01:43] Speaker A: If you're 20, 25 and you want to spend money going to a camp right now, you need to basically be good enough for that program today. You're getting close enough in the recruiting process that you're not really projectable anymore. Yeah, of course coaches know you're going to get better. But if you're a right handed pitcher and you're 81 to 83 and you're spending money to go to Division 1 camps right now, you're wasting your time. Go focus on getting better and then show up in the spring and be 84 to 87. And now maybe we got something, now maybe we're cooking with something, right? And it's kind of the same thing with a 26. Like unless you're, unless you're a bro, you gotta understand that you're still gonna have to prove your bro in July. When these guys actually go and watch you play a game, all you're doing is going, you're just a guy that they go, okay, well maybe I'll see that guy this summer. And if you're lucky enough, you've got somebody in your corner who can keep you at top of mind with that coach and keep the, keep the progress going. But like if you just show up. [01:02:51] Speaker C: Let me go one higher, Andy. Like if, if you have the right people in your corner, you're in the right organization, you have the right people in your corner. Like, you don't even need to go to that camp to get on that list. Like Just get better. [01:03:01] Speaker A: Yeah, you're right. [01:03:02] Speaker C: 26. And then. And then they'll get you in front of them in July. [01:03:07] Speaker A: Yeah, you're right. Yeah, you're absolutely right. [01:03:11] Speaker C: Yeah, it's like, you know what I mean? Like, you know, like. [01:03:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I can't argue with you there. [01:03:20] Speaker B: Well, I think the other thing too, and you know, us, like, we're close enough to it and kind of know this, like, I don't even. I don't even know if they're like. I think in talking to the guys that, you know, I talk to all the time, like, it's. Last year that rule was thrust upon them so quickly, and in what it was like, mid to late April that that rule came out that. So, like, it kind of threw the whole recruiting schedule and what you were going to do kind of out the window. You know, I think some. Some schools just decided to kind of sit on some transfer stuff. You know, I think this year is the first year that you're actually going to see a plan, per se. I don't know if it's going to, like, it's a working. It's a. It's such a fluid process right now, I think for a lot of schools with. With 26s and 27s and. And beyond. Because when they used to go recruit those guys and try to, you know, create that arms race to get dudes committed, like, they're not really going to do it anymore, you know, so what, like, what does that look like this summer? And I. Until we go through a whole cycle of it, I don't necessarily know what it's going to look like for everybody. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, do I think, like, some schools are gonna, you know, go watch some 26s? Yeah, I do. And some 20, but, like, not nearly at the frequency. And what they used to do when guys used to go sit on the 14U, you know, Georgia tournament because, like, what. Why, like, why, why, why go spend the money and time to do that if I can't talk to this kid for four years, like, let me just see if I can get him to campus at some point and, and kind of go from there. And then if he's good enough next year, in a year or two, like, okay, then we'll. We'll get a little bit more serious there. And I don't know, like, I don't know the answer, and I don't think anyone really has that answer right now because this year is going to be the first year where there's going to kind of be a targeted plan for programs of like, okay, this is where we're going to spend the majority of our time, energy and effort from a recruiting standpoint. And then, you know, maybe we'll go do some of this stuff too, you know. So I think it's, it's such a, it's a weird, you know, it's a weird kind of spot to be in if you're a 26, 27, 28 recruit. Because I don't necessarily know what that's going to look like moving forward with this new rule change. I think we'll have a lot, like, we're going to have that kind of conversation next fall of like, okay, this is what this kind of looked like. This is where these are some of the things that we might want to target moving forward, you know, But I think, like, it's just a weird kind of thing to be in right now because no one really knows what to do with them, you know, and we have ACC guys like in the past would be like, give me his number, have him call me at 7 o' clock on Tuesday and we'll, we'll have a conversation, see what happens. Now it's like, let me know what he's like in July of next year. [01:06:18] Speaker A: Which, let me know if he makes his varsity team this spring. Right? [01:06:22] Speaker B: In five or six months. That's a huge, that's a, that's a, that's a gigantic change in this business. A gigantic change in this business in five or six months. [01:06:35] Speaker A: I think it's a good thing. Right to your point. Jonathan, around, like, kids can just focus on getting better now. Like, you don't have to worry about running around and trying to get on somebody's radar so that they can, you know, maybe they'll take a chance on you because they're trying to beat some people to the punch. Like the pre, the, the cream of the crop. 26s in the academic world are just more broadly speaking at all, like they're going to be the cream of the crop, right? Like those kids are going to go off the board early. But if you're not one of those kids, you got to look at this as an opportunity to close a gap. And like if you're 81 to 83 and you're right handed right now and you're 26 and you have aspirations of pitching in the Ivy League and you want to, you know, you, you want to get committed next fall because that's the timeline. You're, you're pushing that all right, great. Right. Understanding it works a little bit slower, but you need to get better first. First and foremost, you need to get. [01:07:29] Speaker C: Better and you gotta get better in 11 months. And I think like, like to your point, like, just, I think, you know, football and basketball, you know, not to compare the sports, but football and basketball have been later in terms of like the recruiting process for the most part even, you know, I know there's some certain guys that go early in both those sports, but baseball, we were the earliest, you know, outside of like men's lacrosse, like, we were the earliest in terms of commitments. Like, dude, if you're 14 and 15 years old, get better. And I think that's kind of where we're back to. And I think that's such a good place and a healthy place for our recruiting process. Even non high academic doesn't matter, like top to bottom our sport as a whole. College baseball as a whole is a better place with the new rule because kids at 14, 15, and even the younger part of 16 can focus on how good can I get and not worry about what camp do I need to run to, what showcase do I need to go to, how do I want to be ranked on PG or pbr. All that stuff is great, but the main focus is like, all right, I need to be as good as I possibly can be on August 1st, walking into my junior year. And I think that's phenomenal for everybody involved. Like you said, Andy, phenomenal. [01:08:50] Speaker A: I think we, for a lot of guys. Go ahead, Keith. [01:08:53] Speaker B: We've, I think we talked about it the first time, the, the first time we had you on, like, and I've said this on here, like, I committed in September of my senior year in, in 2003. Like, that was like astronomically, that was, that was like unbelievably early in 2003. And then, you know, you fast forward to before this rule change, like you're committing in September of your senior year. Like, that is like, you're unbelievably late, you know, and I think there were, there are a lot of programs out there that, that were, that still committed guys that late because they waited, they were patient enough to wait for guys to pop and they're really good programs, you know, but I think that like, you know, you're 100% right, that from a, a health standpoint for guys in the, in the state of the game, it's a far better spot to be in that. You just, you just have to worry about getting better at baseball, not the rat race of you know, where do I have to go in order to be to get committed at the earliest possible stage that I can? And I think that they're like, not only was there, you know, some pressure being put on people from, from programs, you know, I think the. The social aspect of it, and, you know, you can go down the Twitter and Instagram rabbit hole, but, like, like, you know, I, I, like, there was that social pressure, I think, for people seeing other people commit. Like, I need to do this, you know, and we, We've had conversations with families recently where, you know, I had a conversation with a 27 family the other night, and they're like, you know, that we have people telling us that 27s and sixes are being committed. We feel like we're behind the eight ball. And I'm like, listen, first of all, there's a handful out there that are committed because they were grandfathered in, but nobody is committing now. Like, they can't. It's not doable, you know, so it's. That pressure is still out there from, from some people. And I, I think it's. It's not understanding just the basic state of where the recruiting aspect is at. And again, like, this is a veiled process. I used to say this all the time when I was coaching. Like, people come in and ask questions and like, you know, when. When you're coaching and your family sits in front of you, they have questions like, you know, instantly, you know, whether or not this is their first time through this or their fifth time, you know, because their. Their questions are gonna be a little bit more detailed. Like, but it. The first time through it for families, like, this is a daunting process where you have. You generally have no idea what's going on. Like, there's not a lot of information readily available, which is why we do this and have these conversations so people can learn some stuff. But, like, it's a veiled process from a recruiting standpoint, and it gets even more veiled in the high academic world, you know, but it's, you know, it's such a better rule for the state of baseball because it puts everybody kind of on the same track, right? Like, division threes are generally recruiting senior year to senior year. You know, now the bigger, like, the division ones are going to. Not that they're going to be senior year to senior year, but it slows them down to where you can start getting a better idea of guys. And some of those kids that might, you know, have gotten dumped in the past, like, those kids aren't going to get dumped, and they might end up finding the right place at a different school because everyone's forced to be a little bit more patient with it. And overall, it's going to be better for everybody involved. Sorry, Andy, I cut you off there. I hope you remember your thought. [01:12:15] Speaker A: I don't, but I'm glad that you did cut me off because I think that. I think that that's. It's the shift in mindset, right? And it's still, like, people who are going to shoot people, honest, right? And there's three honest dudes on this call. But, like, if you're gonna shoot kids, honest, if it's a 20, 26 right now, just don't worry about getting recruited. Like, I know you want to. Like, even if. If you're 25 this period of time right now, if you're not committed and you're not getting recruited heavily, the world, the baseball world, is telling you that you need to get better. And there's nothing wrong with that, right? Like, the race doesn't end when you commit. It doesn't end when you get to college. Like, you have plenty of time to continue to develop. And everybody commits at different timelines. Like, there's going to be dudes come in to SEC schools that are 25 in August of next year because there's a kid right now who's throwing in some gym with some pitching coach who cares about him, and he walked into that gym and he was 84 to 86 going into the fall or going into the winter, and he's a fringy Division 1 guy, and he's gonna bust his ass for the next six months, and he's gonna go to some tournament and he's gonna be 89, 92 with a good breaking ball, and that kid's gonna go pitch in the ACC or something. That is going to happen, but it doesn't happen if you're worried about getting recruited. It happens because you put your head down and you focus on what you can do to get better and trying to become the best possible version of yourself on the field. And I think this rule slows that down. But I think it is going to take a little bit of time for the mindset to change, because a lot of these parents and families that were of the 26s in particular, they were a part of. They were just a part of the window of recruiting where it was super fast and guys were getting committed really early. So they likely know dudes that are in their class have already committed. But just the rules are now, like, you don't get to commit until August 1st if you're one of the best players in the country. So why worry about it? Go get better. Make your high school team first. Right. Have conversations with kids who play JV as a freshman, and they're sophomores, and we're worried about getting recruited by Division 1 schools. How about we make our varsity team first? Like, let's be a good varsity player. Let's make Archbishop Carroll's team better this year. That's what you should be thinking about. How are you going to help Coach Grass win a title? [01:14:48] Speaker C: No, I think you're that on. I think, you know, we have this discussion a lot with our families. It's like, you know, the. But again, like, before, you know, the last 10 years or so, six years, whatever, the eight years, whatever you want to call it, that mindset has gone away. Like, it's just get better as was. Like, it. It's greeted to us like it's like a foreign thing. And it's like, because kids weren't able to get recruited at all times, there's just, like, exposure, exposure, exposure. And it's like, no, like, now it's time to, like, get really, really, really good. So, like, it's November. Like, how good can you be in June? Like, do you want to pitch at Columbia? Do you want to pitch at Brown? Do you want to, you know, play at Penn? Well, you got to get really, really, really good in the next, you know, you know, whatever you want to call it. Seven months, six and a half months to do that. Like, get after it, because they're going to judge you on what you are next June, not what you are November 20th. So to get really, really, really good and get really good grades and let the rest sort itself out. [01:16:01] Speaker A: Spot on. I want to. I want to open that. We're talking about showcase, and we got off the topic a little bit. But I do want to bring it back to something, because I know you're doing something pretty unique this upcoming year. Correct me if I'm wrong with Elite, that Taylor's really specifically to this. And I think it kind of sets you guys apart a little bit. But talk about that a little bit, because I think that if you are a high academic kid, something along these lines is really worth thinking about in terms of getting the exposure and being around people that can help you in this process. [01:16:37] Speaker C: Yeah. So what we designed is a team that is specific for high academic players, and it's surrounding yourself with obviously myself, but, you know, a couple other you know, Division 3 head coaches that are going to coach the team and we're going to high academic specific events so that you don't feel like you play on this team all summer and then you need to go and spend the 12, 1500 dollars on all these different camps and run around. But you can basically take your team concept and you can put it together with the showcase part of it, with the high academic part of it. We'll put you in front of the schools, we're going to meet with you and kind of give you the rundown in terms of like, you know, where you at academically, where do we see you athletically, what's some of the feedback we're getting from you, you know, from coaches, you know, on the athletic side of it. And then what do you need to focus on the second half of the summer to best suit you and not just feel like, hey, I plan this team. You know, we play in, you know, six tournaments in you know, the middle part of the country and, or you know, in Texas and you know, now I need to go to, you know, these two camps that are $1200 each just to get in front of the high academic schools. So a little bit of a unique opportunity to kind of take the team part of it, but the showcase and the exposure part of it and kind of combo it into to it together. [01:18:20] Speaker A: Freaking love it. Yeah, I mean, I know you were talking to us about it before, but it's, it's a unique way to angle it and it's, it's uniquely tailored to exactly what kids like that need. Like you need the tournament exposure, but you also need some freedom to get in front of some other schools potentially and make sure that you have the ability to go to some different stuff. A lot of time guys, they get stuck and they're on a travel team and they're booked all summer and they can't go to camps or they get stuck in a situation where they play Thursday through Sunday. You know, you get a right handed pitcher who throws on Saturday and somebody holding the camp on Tuesday and you're showing up to camp on Tuesday and you're not really sharp, you're not really ready to go in terms of being able to showcase yourself. So I think being able to build that stuff in is awesome. [01:19:08] Speaker C: Yeah, like you said, it's like it's uniquely, you know, putting them, putting a specific group of kids together that are looking for the same type of thing, you know, and people ask us all the time like, you know, oh, do you have like Like a minimum GPA or do you have, like a, you know, a minimum test score that you guys are looking for to play, you know, with you guys? And it's. The answer is no. It's just, hey, I can get on the phone with you guys for, like, five minutes, probably even less than that, and figure out, like, hey, is this the opportunity that you want be based on what you're kind of telling us in terms of what you're looking for in a school for you, for the next level? And. And that's the biggest thing for us is, like, we're looking for not a lot of guys, a couple, you know, 13, 14 guys that are specifically looking for something, you know, in terms of the high academic world. And that could be Brown, Yale, Harvard, or it could be fm, rpi, Vassar Bard. Doesn't matter. You know, it's. We're looking for those types of guys and not guys that are, hey, I'm, you know, it doesn't matter what level I play at. I just want to play at the highest level of baseball. It's more, hey, I want to go to a school kind of like what Keith said earlier that, you know, will serve me the rest of my life. And I'm willing to go Division 1, I'm willing to go Division 3, but I want to play at the next level, and I want to play at the best academic school I possibly can play it. [01:20:39] Speaker A: Dig it. Dig it. Check out Elite National. If you're an academic and you're listening to this, reach out to. Reach out to our guy, you're in good hands with them for sure. Anything else you guys want to add about the. We could talk about this for hours, but the intricacies of the academic world. [01:21:01] Speaker C: Anything we missed, I just want to thank you guys. Get me on. I love it. You know, I know we've done. I'm the, you know, the resident, you know, podcaster here with you guys, but I absolutely love it. I can't thank you guys enough. And, you know, like, I told, you know, guys all the time, like, if you want to. If you want to go with people, go with people that, you know, you trust and, you know, I trust the heck out of you guys. You guys are some of my best friends, and I just appreciate you getting me on and, you know, getting to kind of chop it up here for, you know, an hour or so every couple months. [01:21:35] Speaker A: Hell, yeah. We got. College baseball season will be starting before you know it, and we. We might just have to. We might have to mix in some. Some previews perhaps some some predictions. You know what does Dave port nor do emergency press conference who might have to have some like eight for we. [01:21:55] Speaker C: Might have to go at eight for Omaha. What do you think? Maybe in February we'll go eight for Omaha. [01:21:59] Speaker B: Yeah, we're going to have a preview and then we'll we're probably gonna have a mid season review to see who what surprise teams are really playing well and then we're obviously going to have to get into the the playoffs at the end. Playoffs. [01:22:13] Speaker A: Playoffs. I'm on my own. [01:22:16] Speaker C: My my Golden Eagles from freaking Oklahoma City or wherever they're at. Tulsa, Oklahoma is getting getting going again. [01:22:27] Speaker B: Yeah yeah. [01:22:28] Speaker A: Looking forward to it. It'll be fantastic. Well, thanks Jonathan. You man. I know we'll catch up soon. For those of you listening, thank you for listening. Go ahead and check out Elite national, especially if you're interested in that academic team. If you want to learn more about what we do at EMD baseball, go to EMD baseball.com you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter MD baseball. And also we have just launched our online recruiting academy. And for you special listeners, if you punch in Dugout Dish 15, you'll get 15% off your purchase of the academy. Go check it out. All the information is online. Thanks again for listening. We'll talk to you next week. [01:23:26] Speaker C: Sam.