Episode 131: Interview with East Tennessee State Head Coach Joe Pennucci

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[00:01:13] Speaker B: This week's edition of the Dugout Dish podcast. I'm Andy Kittes, joined by my wonderful co host Keith Glasser. How we doing? [00:01:19] Speaker A: Great. How are you? [00:01:20] Speaker B: We got another guest on tonight. Excited about this one. Why don't you give you the old intro. [00:01:26] Speaker A: Sure do. Longtime friend, someone who I met longer than I would probably readily like to admit ago in this game when he was coaching at Stony Brook and now is the head coach at East Tennessee State University. Tonight we are joined by Joe Panucci. Joe, thanks for joining us, man. [00:01:47] Speaker C: Happy to be here. Happy to be here. I wish I had a cool background like you guys, but besides that, this is awesome. [00:01:53] Speaker A: When you have Justin doing this for us, we have, we got cool stuff we can throw up behind us. [00:01:58] Speaker C: I love it. It's good stuff. [00:02:00] Speaker A: Before we get going, just give our listeners a quick rundown of how you ended up at etsu. [00:02:07] Speaker C: You got it. I'll give you the quick version. I grew up in Colorado. I was a Colorado guy and took a job at Dominican College, which was In Rockland County, New York, Division 2. Went there, put a U haul on my Tacoma and drove across country, decided to, to take a shot at it. So I did that. Worked at, worked at a little IBM gym at the same time I was coaching. So I opened up this gym in the morning at this IBM facility, went to practice and recruiting and stuff in the afternoon. And then it was a, it was an interesting time, but it was cool. Rick Giannetti was the head coach. Still is now. Rick's awesome. Gave me a great opportunity and spent two years there. Didn't Screw it up, I guess, and then got the assistant. One of the assistant jobs at Stony Brook. Coach Zank, you know, who just retired this last year, went to. Gave me an opportunity to go there, and I spent 11 years with him at Stony Brook. And, you know, again, just like Dominican couldn't have. Couldn't have been with a better person and worked with better players, and obviously, we did some really special things while I was there, and. And then from there on, kind of ended up in Tennessee and him and the head coach here at East Tennessee, I think eight years now, if I'm not mistaken, which seems to go awfully fast. So, yeah, a couple decades involved in this madness, and that's the quick version of where I am now. [00:03:47] Speaker B: Yeah, you glossed over some of the successes at Stony Brook, and we. We had one of your. Your former assistant coach colleagues on previously. And for those of you who are not familiar, Coach Panucci was a part of the staff that took Stony Brook to the College World Series, which is one hell of an accomplishment for any program. But for you guys to do what you did at Stony Brook, I think speaks volumes for what you guys were able to build there. And you guys are coming off a pretty awesome year at East Tennessee as well with the. The NCAA Tournament appearance. So, OB Things are on the up and up down in. In Johnson City, if I'm correct, right? [00:04:30] Speaker C: It is, yeah. Johnson City, no question. Yeah. No, I mean, you know, the. The success at Stony Brook was awesome. We had such good players. And, you know, I think the cool part about Coach Sank was he let, you know, you said you had Mike on, who clearly is nearly. Not as nearly as cool as I am. So this will be much, much better than Mike's. But when he let us work, that was the best part about it. Like, he let us fail, succeed, figure things out. Good idea, bad idea. And it was cool to just have some. Some ownership to that. And, you know, we had such a great experience, such, you know, big leaguers and, you know, a bunch of regional appearances and really, really some good players. And I think here, you know, we tried to create this, a similar atmosphere where our coaches, you know, I took that page out of, you know, both Coach Gianetti and Coach sinks book of letting our guys work, letting them do their thing, you know, letting them. Like when people say to me that, you know, I. I'm so grateful for Coach Marshall. I'm so grateful for Coach Benzino. Like, that makes me feel good. That makes me feel like those guys are. Are. We're. We're. Doing the right thing. So, you know, those are, like, the. The learning blocks that I think you do. And I'm just fortunate to have the right guys, and I'm grateful that I had that opportunity as well. [00:05:48] Speaker A: I think the one thing, too, we touch on this at least once when we have people on is when you talk about opening gyms. When you first start getting into coaching, like, it's. It was a lot less glamorous. I think when we all came up. [00:06:03] Speaker C: In this business, you could say I was an idiot. I mean, I moved across the country for a $5,000 job, and I was making 2,500 as the assistant baseball coach and 2,500 as the cross country coach. Now, the cross country coach was our pitchers that ran cross country. So the best part was I'd go to these cross country meets, and these other guys were. They were real. Like, they knew what they were talking about, like, shin angles and, like, stuff. So I would look at him, and I'm like, hey, dude, give me something to say just so I act like I know what I'm doing, you know? So he'd say, oh, talk about his knee. And I say, all right, get your knee in this. And then. So, yeah, so, like, that was it. And then the. Yeah, the gym thing, I mean, that's really what kept the lights on for me. So now there's not a lot of glamour when it comes to that. [00:06:47] Speaker A: No, it's. I mean, I did. I. My first job is at West Isle as a ga for about six grand. And then I was the volley as the second assistant at Siena for two years, you know, doing all those odd jobs. But, you know, I think, like, now I sound old when I say this. Like, now I hear all these assistants that are making money, and I'm like, gosh, like, I'm happy for it from the game standpoint. I'm like, yeah, you know, we had to pay our dues a little bit more when we came up in this. In this business, but I think it's all, like, working with Coach Sank. Like, I had this very similar experience with Coach Rossi and Carl. You know, even Coach Rundles at West all, like, they were. I lovingly call them dinosaurs. Like, you know, Coach Rossi just retired, what, two years ago after 55 years. He's older than all of us. And, you know, Carl was at RPI for 37. Like, those guys that allowed you, as a young coach to figure it out on your own and work and fail and see what worked and what didn't, you know, like, I remember time sitting in the office, and kid would leave and be like, that was a great visit. Coach Ross be like, he's not coming here. [00:07:54] Speaker B: Come on. [00:07:55] Speaker A: Like, we just nailed that visit. He's like, yeah, it doesn't matter. He's not coming here without fail, within, like, 48 hours. That kid would call me like, hey, thanks for. Thanks for everything, but I'm going to St. John's and I'm like, God, I thought we had that kid. He's like, we never had a shot. And just, like, years, like, when you get older and you become a head coach, you look back and you're like, okay, I get where. I get why he made me do these things. I get why he let me fail and do all these, like, things when I was 26 years old, 25, not even 23, 24. And I was like, God, this is so dumb. Why am I doing this? [00:08:30] Speaker B: Right? [00:08:30] Speaker A: And then you become a head coach, and you're like, okay, I get it. Give it back to him. Like, he rented our field the one time he showed up, and he was like, you're late. I'm like, I'm. I'm not late. He's like, you've. I was sitting down the road. You just showed up. I was like, I've been in my office for the last hour and a half getting stuff done. Before I came out. He was like, well, I didn't know that. I was like, well, learn from the best. [00:08:54] Speaker C: Because he is a trip, man. [00:08:57] Speaker A: He's the best. [00:08:59] Speaker C: Oh, he's that guy. [00:09:00] Speaker A: That guy's seen more baseball than all three of us probably combined. And that's saying something, given that we have close to 50 years of experience with all three of us, and he had 55 just in college. [00:09:15] Speaker C: I know. I know. [00:09:16] Speaker A: Things that. That dude saw kind of. [00:09:19] Speaker C: I know. And that's. That was like. You know, last year was bittersweet for me, too, just seeing, you know, Coach Sank retired. And when he called me and told me about it, and I was like, man, I. I was. I was congratulating him more than, like, being anything else because, you know, he earned it. It's like, you earned it. You earned it to go whenever you want. [00:09:37] Speaker A: I think it's important for younger coaches to hear, like, a lot of these guys actually know what they're doing. I think sometimes, like, as players and as coaches, it's like, oh, the game has passed this guy by. Like, no, it hasn't. It hasn't passed them by. Like, they're. They might be setting their ways with some things, but, like, go look at their resume, man. They've won more games at this level than you've probably ever played in your whole life. Yeah, you might want to listen. [00:10:02] Speaker C: And I think guys like that, that let, you know, the other guys do some stuff, too, and let them grow. And, I mean, that isn't easy for a lot of coaches to do. And when you've been around and doing a program and built a program up, you know, like Coach Sank has and still allow that freedom for your assistance, man, that's special. And that. That's kind of what molds you. And like I said, I've tried to do that, and I've been lucky to have the right guys to do it, so. And it's just help for the development of our players. [00:10:31] Speaker B: Speaking of the ETSU program, first question we always start with is, how do you guys go about identifying players that are a fit for you guys and, like, kind of, what does that look like in terms of where you're looking, how you're finding out about them? Walk us through that process a little bit. [00:10:52] Speaker C: Yeah, you know, we. We have. I can't say that we have just a mold of, like, you know, hey, this is, you know, the player that we are always going to get. Right. It's. It's a speed thing, it's a power thing, it's a defender thing. Like, yeah, you know, there might be some pieces of it that, you know, are of value a little more than others. But, you know, I think when we're talking about players in the office and Coach Penz or Coach Marshall or myself or whoever sees a guy and we're discussing, and it's just, you know, what. What version of our team does he fit? And how is that going to make us as a program better? Right. And then, that being said, how can we continue to make that guy grow and get better and, you know, get him to be in the best version of himself? And I think those are the pieces of it. But for us, you know, I mean, it could be some context that we have. It could be some, you know, some guys like yourselves that, you know, we trust and we've known for a long time that call us on a guy and then. And I know that, you know, we're going to be on the right guy, it might not be the best fit for us right now, or it might be the best fit for us right now. Same thing with, like, a high school coach that says, hey, you might want to check this guy out, and then we can follow him in the summer, you know, with the summer teams and the summer programs and so forth. So from the high school standpoint, I think it's a lot of following programs in staying connected with the guys that you trust to be able to follow and evaluate and see what you like. And then from there, those evaluations just kind of follow what our needs are at that point. Right? [00:12:28] Speaker B: Yeah, the. It seems that the context thing is an important piece of the puzzle for a lot of guys. Like, you talked about going to guys that you trust, and we. We talked about it a little bit before we started and how difficult it is sometimes to get a really good read on a kid and figure out. You know, I think most baseball guys will tell you figuring out if a kid's good enough is probably the. The less difficult part of the. Of the process and figuring out if he's going to be a right fit for your program, is he going to gel. If he's a pitcher, is. Is he going to gel with. With Coach Penzino? If he's a hitter, is he going to be able to gel with Coach Marshall? How do you go about peeling that onion back? Like, what are some important things that you try to do or kind of clues that a kid will leave that you feel like he's got a chance to be the right fit for you guys? From a character perspective, not necessarily a talent perspective. [00:13:30] Speaker C: Sure. I. I do think the character perspective with high school players is probably the most difficult. Right. Because you might not have as much evidence of who they are, you know, when they're a juco guy or potentially transfer. You might have a little bit more conf. Context or, you know, more. You might know more people that have been in the trenches with them at that level. But, you know, I think having conversations with them, seeing what programs that they come from, you know, I still believe in high school players. I might be like, you know, one of, you know, five people in the country that can actually say that. But I still think high school players are allowed to be good. And I think, like, if we can. To me, like, that's a big piece of what a lot of these guys are asking when they come to campus. It's like, hey, like, I. That's probably the most question I get. It's like, boy, you guys just can't recruit high school players anymore. Right? And I know I'm going on a tangent a little bit, but I think you can. And, you know, we were fortunate the last couple years. I mean, you know, two years ago, two of our weekend starters were freshmen you know, last year, you know, we started two freshmen in a regional, right, In a championship type season. And I think those guys are allowed to be good. And it's just determining, you know, to answer your question, I think it's a difficult one. I don't know that there is a magic potion that I could sprinkle and say, like, that's the best character guy we can get. I don't know that that's the case. But I, I do know, you know, I ask a lot of questions with the family. I probably talk to the families about where they're from, what they do, what their grandparents did. Where did you grow up? Where'd your grandparents grow up? Like, I, I get really interested in seeing like that stuff, like, you know, what does mom and dad do every day? You know, and I do think there's a little bit of connection between kind of what they do and how they're going about stuff, you know, in the interactions they have with their kids. And I think there's a piece of that that could be important. Does that mean it's a great fit for you? I, I don't know that that's. I'd be lying to you if I said, you know, I have this, this master document that, you know, it all works out. But I think like, the more questions you ask and the more people that you can communicate with about those guys, the pride, the. You're going to get to the bottom of a lot of things, you know. And I also think, you know, coming from good programs, I mentioned that a little bit. I don't necessarily mean summer programs, but, you know, I, I think, you know, especially the places that care about high school baseball, which they are still some, there's still some that do. And coming from those programs that win consistently, man, like, I think about some of those guys that we've had, you know, through 20 plus years of doing this, and it's like, you know, he was in the, he was the quarterback of their football team and you know, they were in the playoffs and he was their, whatever, shortstop and pitcher on their state championship team in baseball. And I think there's still a little bit of like, you know, winning edge to them and understanding like what that means. And they're probably, whatever sport they're in, they're probably learning some of that things and what it takes to be successful, what it takes to fail, what accountability looks like, I think those are kind of pieces that are important, doesn't always happen. And I can tell you, like, there's some stuff, you Know, you might make a decision on a kid and you don't know enough, but you know, he's left handed and you like his arm, so you're like, oh, whatever. [00:16:56] Speaker A: Yeah, that. [00:16:57] Speaker B: You touched on like the, the winning piece. And I think it took me a while to figure out how important that can be. And it was something that Murph used to, used to focus on. Like, who is this kid around all the time? Is he around good players? Is he around good coaches? What's the standard at those particular programs? Like you mentioned multi sport guys, like are they good at other things? Are they competing in other sports? And yeah, it's always interesting to see how, you know, and I wish I knew that earlier on. I wish I kind of figured that piece out. But once you do, I do think that that stuff leaves clues. Like you've been doing it long enough that yeah, you start to put some of that stuff together and you start to figure out, all right, like this kid's got a chance and like you never know what's going to happen when they get to school. And we've talked about this on the podcast, like the transition to college is, can be tough on kids because you're, you're in a completely new ultra competitive environment with some grown ass men and you know, you're no longer the, you know, the kind of the top of the food chain anymore. And you gotta, you know, how kids react to that is, is really tough to predict. [00:18:14] Speaker C: Yeah, that's critical, man. Really difficult, really difficult. But I think like, I don't know that that's changed a ton because you know, I think about like if we all think about like our freshman year, like the awkwardness that that was, but how cool that actually was. Like, I can close my eyes and envision like, oh man, this is weird. But like this is a blast. And I, I think like if your environment's right and you got the right players and you're presenting the right environment for your, your, your players, I think that that's going to give them the right atmosphere to succeed, you know, and that doesn't. They're probably going to hear stuff that they don't want to hear. They're probably going to be more accountable, held accountable for the nonsense that, you know, maybe mom and dad let them get away with or their high school coach might have let her get away with. Whatever. It could be a missed assignment, it could be being late. You know, we deal with all that stuff on a daily basis and it's like when they leave our program, I Feel like, you know, they're gonna know when to be there, what time to be there, and they're gonna understand that, you know, those things are super valuable. And then, you know, I say this to them all the time. I said, like, it. You know, if. If you're where you need to be, when you need to be there, and you're on time and you can communicate a little bit, I don't care what job you have, you're gonna be good at it. And if you can make a friend and maybe communicate a little bit more, you're probably like a manager or something. You know what I mean? Like, you're pro. You're pro. And all of a. Like, it's just. It's just kind of all the way it works. Like, you know, and I think we do try to do our best to do that off the field, and then I think it does connect on the field as you go. So those are some big pieces to our program. You know, I don't let them slip an inch when it comes to little things like that, because it's not about the missed assignment. Nobody actually cares about the missed assignment in Psychology 101, your freshman year in March, or that's irrelevant down the road, right? But it's about doing what you need to do, when you need to do it, and there's a connection to that as you go through your program and as you go through life. I do believe that, you know, I mean, I watched my parents wake up every day, go to work, do their job, come back, take care of us. And it was like, okay, that's what you're supposed to do, right? And that's kind of what I tried to do. I tried to go to school. I tried to do this stuff. I don't know if I was very good at it, but I did it. And I think, like, we try to have those things with our guys to just understand, like, this is what. This is the standard that we do now. You can exceed that standard, and then you're going to be great. But this is the standard that we're getting to. [00:20:44] Speaker A: I think one of the hardest things for the younger player, the high school kid, if you will, and even as they get a little bit older. But, like, is that communication piece, like, that was something that I would hammer our guys on, not in a negative way, but like, hey, if you stayed after a class for 10 minutes to talk to your professor and you're gonna run late to practice, like, just text me. I. I don't care. But if you're late without saying anything, then I'm gonna be like, why are you late? And it's a while I, I stay after class. Like, you couldn't text me that 25 minutes ago? And it, it should. And like, it's not necessary. To your point, it's not about the being late. It's not, it's just about like, hey, I'm not going to be where I'm going to be on time. Let me just let coach know so that he knows I'm not, you know, being an idiot and forgot that we had practice at 2 o' clock today, whatever it might be. But I think that, that like, I, it got to the point where, and I was happy about this, but it got to the point where my guy at rpi, where I was like, I had to like, kind of pull the reins back. Like, I don't need to know everything. I just need to know like, what, where you are and what you're doing and why you're not here. That's really all I need to know. But it's, I think it's hard sometimes, like, if you're not going to. And I do think it's, it's a little bit different. Like we grew up in an era with coaches where like, it didn't matter, like if you told them you were going to be late, like, you were still going to be in trouble. Like, it wasn't, you weren't. Like, it wouldn't have mattered if I did. Like, you know, heels probably have been like, okay, but like, it's burned into my memory of guys walking on the field late at practice and he was being like, where were you? Like, full well, knowing everyone was at class. Like, I was at class. Like, oh, yeah, I'm sure you were like burned into my memory of like, okay, if I'm going to be running late, I have to let somebody know. Yeah, it's just like, it's things like that that I feel like it's those things and I think a lot of it too, especially from a coaching standpoint and specifically, I don't know if it's specific to baseball, but like, those are the little things that are, can be like culture shock for you when you get to campus because you're not used to having to hold yourself account. You're more or less holding yourself accountable to making sure that you, like people know where you are and what you're doing. And I think sometimes that that's, that's a hard jump for kids to make. And I, you know, I, I, it's I, I, I think that it's just one of those things that you, you just have to continually hammer them on because it does. Like I same thing you do. Like I used to tell my guy, like, this isn't just about this. And again, I don't care that you didn't write the paper. Like, if you have to write the paper for class, you should probably write the paper for class. Like, that's, that's just how this goes. [00:23:35] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:23:35] Speaker A: You know, but it's, I also, I also coach kids that actually really cared about sport school, whereas I majored in baseball and minored in history and psychology. So there's that aspect of it too. And I do, like, I find it interesting like, because you had mentioned earlier, like people saying like, you know, do you, you know, you can't even recruit high school players anymore. And we hear the same thing on our side of things and it's like, well, you know, had I've flirted with tweeting this out when I see everyone on the flurry of like, until I see somebody tweet, hashtag blessed to be committed to the transfer portal. Like, you still have to recruit high school players. Like, you, you can't actually get into the portal without having first set foot on a college campus. Like, that's not really how this works. Like, you still have to recruit. Like, does it mean that some schools might recruit less high school players than they have in the past? Yeah, it does. And that's fine. That means the floor of college baseball is kind of being raised. But you still have to be able to be a college baseball player to enter yourself in the transfer portal to eventually and that like maybe transfer somewhere else. You might not even transfer up. You might be transferring down. You know, and I'm not, I'm not anti portal. I've said this a million times on here. Like, I think it's, it gives kids more options and it gives coaches more options, like it or not. You know, we grew up in a time where we like, if you missed on a player like you, damn, we're pretty close to making that kid's life miserable so that he leaves school and you get your money back. Now at least you can be like, hey, it ain't going to work out here. Like, we've tried everything. It's not going to work out. Like, you're a great kid. We think there's a place for you. Like, let's, let's try to find somewhere else to go. And you know, that gives more options for people because things do change. But, you know, I. This narrative of, like, high school baseball is dead and it doesn't matter anymore. And, you know, you can't recruit high school players. Like, you know, you have to set foot on a college campus before you can transfer. You can't just. The transfer portal doesn't have a coach that's like, extending offers and accepting people. Like, what. What's the GPA requirement for the transfer portal? Like, is there an SAT score for it? Because I don't know. I haven't seen one yet. [00:26:00] Speaker C: No question about. [00:26:00] Speaker A: Sorry, that's my. [00:26:03] Speaker C: No, I. That is a big question. I get, though, a lot, like, about. [00:26:07] Speaker A: No. And rightfully so. Like, I completely get it. Like, the landscape of college baseball is completely different than what it was when we played, when we first started coaching. I mean, it's different than it was five years ago. It's not even. It's not even close to what it was five years ago between NIL and the transfer portal and all the rules and all this other stuff. Like, you don't. It is a completely different landscape than what it was, but it's also not the worst. Like, you. If you can't talk to a kid as a Division 1 guy until August 1st of his junior year, we were committing kids who were freshmen before that. I remember being at Sienna in, oh, nine. Like, we offered a kid who was a sophomore, like, that kid didn't even have his license yet. You know, at least now, you know, you look at. And it's like, you know, some people I've talked to, a bunch of guys are like, I don't even know how many 27s we're really going to offer because I don't know what my roster looks like at the end of this spring. And, like, that allows a lot of these kids who can use them, if you're smart about it, use the next seven, eight, nine months to really develop and show up and show out in February, March, April, May, June of next year. And all of a sudden it's like, wow, this kid's a dude. Where everyone else kind of like, you didn't have money left for that kid. You were going to try to get him to walk on, or you're whacking somebody to get this kid, whatever it might be. Now it's like, well, we have money. Like, we have a ton of money. Hey, man, this kid's really good and he fits our program. We've done our homework. Hey, let's. Let's let it ride and see what happens. And I think it's better for the kids, it's better for the families. You can make a more informed decision if you go about it the right way than what we were previously doing. Not that that system was broken, but it's okay to change it and make it a little bit better now. Is it going to be perfect right away? No, it's not. Like, who knows what this designated student athlete looks like and all this other stuff. Like, it's not going to be perfect right away. But I would argue in some respects that it's a better system than what we had five, six, seven years ago. Sorry, that was my rant. Usually good for one. [00:28:10] Speaker C: Yeah, you're allowed. It's your damn. [00:28:14] Speaker B: How, how are these new rules with the, the timing? I mean, that's kind of been in place, but like the roster reduction, the transfer portal, has that changed anything that you guys do, timing wise, roster construction wise, has that fundamentally changed how you guys are going about it or somewhere in between? [00:28:36] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's a little in between. I mean, I, I do think you're gonna, you'll probably be, I think you're a little more skeptical early on, right? You may be a little bit more. The decision making process, I think, is going to be a little bit more rigorous because you know that we're right. Let's make sure that this is the right fit right now for this guy and for our program because, you know, we don't want to go back on it. And you. But at the same time, you don't know what your roster looks like. I mean, that thing could change in June and you could have went a whole different direction, you know, you know, a year before. So I, I don't know that the construction of it changes. I think you still got a pretty good feel of, you know, how many pitchers you want, how many position players you want, kind of what is going to fit our particular program. But there's. Definitely. It certainly slowed it down and it slowed it down for everybody. I don't think that we're any different with that. But I just hope that you just hope that you're kind of making, you know, a few better decisions than maybe you would in the past, you know, because like you mentioned, you know, you're, you're offering, you know, sophomores that don't drive, you know, you don't know if that kid's going to be a good player at all. I mean, we've seen that go one way or the other, right? As a sophomore, it could go great. It could go. He doesn't get any better and it could go sideways. So I think you got a little bit better indication. [00:30:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that, I mean Keith said on it but like I think the new rules in the long term, once people get over like the shock of it with the roster cuts and the timing of the contacts and the transfer portal, I think in the long run it's actually going to be better for the student athlete. Right. I think coaches are going to be forced to be a little bit more patient. They're going to have to make better decisions. I think eventually people are going to learn that the transfer portal isn't this catch all safety of like, well, if I don't like it, I can go into the transfer portal. Because you're seeing a lot of kids go in there and not get recruited. So I think people will probably start making some better decisions and you might see some more kids be willing to develop and fight for their spot in a program versus well, I didn't get exactly what I wanted, you know, so I'm going to go somewhere else. And I think giving kids more time to develop, I think it open up, opens up more doors for them. [00:31:01] Speaker C: I hope that's true. I hope that. I don't think that's the case right now, but I do hope that's true. I hope that that happens. I mean, I think it's being used in a couple different ways. I mean, I think Keith is right. It does give an opportunity for a kid that might not play in your program to go and play somewhere else, you know, but it also kind of gives those guys that are good in your program to go somewhere else and you're kind of caught in between of trying to figure out, you know, how am I supposed to feel about it, you know, and I don't feel good about it most of the time. Most of the time I don't feel good about it. And I think it's silly and I don't know what you're doing, but hope it works. Right? Yeah, I think here's my. Here's my. And we're talking about the portal. So I'll, I'll give you what I think about it. But if I think like long term with the portal hoppers, which there are some, you, you know, if I asked you, you know, where you went to school, you could easily tell me, right? I'm an alarm of. I guess it's pretty simple with you too. But my question's going to be down the road for some of these guys, like they're an alum to Nothing. And like, it kind of, that kind of sucks a little bit. And I do think like the 30 for 30 on all this in a few years, I have a lot to say, so I hope I'm on that. But there is a, there's gonna be, it's gonna be a lot of like, weird stuff. It's gonna be like, yeah, I made a million dollars, or you know what, I never found a place to play, or I left this thing and I, you know, have no connection to any school anymore. And it's really weird. Like, it's so weird. You know, it's so weird because when a guy leaves your program, like, I'll be honest, like, I'm not happy about it. And I don't think I have to be this, I don't think it has to be this Kumbaya world where I'm okay with it. Like, I don't. I, It's. [00:32:54] Speaker A: I'm not. [00:32:55] Speaker C: And I. People could dislike me or not, but I'm not. I think it's. I'm not happy about it. Did they better themselves? I don't know. Maybe. I guess time will tell, but like, it's just. There's so many unknowns with it. And, and I think like, at the end of the day, it's like, you know, are guys going to graduate on time? Who knows? Apparently nobody cares about that anymore, so that's not that big of a deal. Secondly, it's like, you know, what are you associated with and, and you know, what are you. And I don't know the answers to those things. You know what I mean? So that's why, you know, like, I can appreciate some guys that are good players and are all conference type of players and our, you know, draft type of guys that stick with your program and stick with programs. Like, I truly respect those guys immensely because they're getting pulled in so many different directions and advised by so many different people that, you know, hey, you can do this here, you can make money here, you know, you can play at this big place here, you know, and, and I understand that. I, I do understand that. But at the same time, like, I don't know that I have to like it. [00:33:53] Speaker A: No. [00:33:54] Speaker B: And I, it's, it's such a, it's such a funny thing being on, on a, on a different side of it now because, like, I can, I can put myself in your shoes. And like, if I was at William and Mary in 2016 and we lost our future 9th round draft pick catcher to the transfer portal because he was a dude like yeah, I'm probably not super fired up about it because like, hey man, you're kind of where you are because this is where you came and like we helped you get to where you are and like you can accomplish everything you need. And then on the other side of it, you look at it and it's like, well, some of these kids are getting like life changing money. But those are the stories that you hear about. You don't, you know, that's the stuff that goes out on social media and the D1 baseball post. The kid who transferred and went to, you know, Florida State or transferred and went to Arkansas. But they don't talk about the kid who goes into the transfer portal and doesn't end up anywhere. [00:34:58] Speaker C: Yeah, there's a big percentage of those guys too. [00:35:00] Speaker B: And that's the, that's kind of the untold story where, you know, you do get a lot of people that seem to have their hands in, in the, in the cookie jar here trying to help guys make decisions and you know, you wonder what their intentions are there. But it's such a slippery slope and maybe I'm trying to be optimistic, but I'm hoping it sorts itself out because I think at some point people will have a reality check of like kind of what it is that it's, it's not this free for all. Like grass is greener one, you know, one stop shop to get everything fixed. And you know, a lot of times the guys who have the most success and if there's college guys who listen to this or high school guys that are listening to it, like sometimes you just got to fight it out and sometimes the best place to be is the place you're at. Like if you've had a ton of success somewhere, you don't have to go anywhere else in today's world of baseball to go get drafted or get notoriety or go play in the Cape League. Like if you're really good, like nobody cares. [00:35:58] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:35:58] Speaker B: You know, I mean, shoot, MIT had a ninth round draft pick this year. Like if it mattered that much, they wouldn't have drafted him. [00:36:06] Speaker C: Sure. It makes me laugh when I hear that stuff, like the draft leverage stuff and all that. It makes me laugh. Like I've had, I mean list. I've been really fortunate to coach some, some good players. First rounders, third rounders, fifth rounders, back in the day, 30th rounder, like I, you know, and I've been it, I'm a mid major guy. That's where I've been. And we've had Good players. And it's even here, like, you know, last, you know, three, four years we've had a draft pick. And it's, it's, it's funny because, you know, you can, it's, it's irrelevant. Like, if you're a good player and you continue to do what you're supposed to do and you're doing the right things and you'll, you'll be fine. And I think that is in. That's just something that people say, oh, well, it's leverage. I, I don't know if it. Leveraged for what? Like, I don't know. I had a, we had a third rounder this year. What was his leverage? Leverage? [00:36:57] Speaker A: What? [00:36:57] Speaker C: He was a good player and could have left if he wanted to and he didn't. [00:37:00] Speaker A: I think it's, it's just using the excuse. It's the opposite spec end of the spectrum from, like, I'm not getting what I want or these guys don't like me or whatever the old excuse used to be of why guys would leave. Now it's just, it's the opposite end of the spectrum of like, well, you know, I get more draft leverage and I can go play in whatever league. Like, you know, I, I agree with you. I know my rant earlier may not have necessarily explicitly said that. I don't know. I've said this. Like, I don't know if I was still coaching at rpi, if I would be thrilled about sending guys into, you know, my business, guys into summer ball that were really good because they might end up in the transfer portal and going somewhere else. And, you know, I have a hard time reckoning with that. It's easier, obviously, on the outside now, but it's, there's something to be said about being an alum of a program that you were at for three, four years. And look in some, in some instances too, right? Like, if you're a juco guy, you know, like, maybe you're only there for two years, but still, like, you know, but being, you know, that seven time transfer guy because you had 15 years of COVID left over, like, what, what do you do? Like, what is that? The other question that I always have on the outside, and it's irrelevant for this podcast, is like, what does your transcript look like? Like, how are we continually getting you into school? [00:38:31] Speaker C: Nobody cares about that. [00:38:32] Speaker A: You know what I mean? Like, just like from the outside, like, I see it, I'm like, you've been like nine schools. Like, there's no way all these credits transfer like, and the fun you're on your first bachelor's like you should be. [00:38:44] Speaker C: Our thing is still a deal too. It's like the whole. Right? It's still a deal. It's weird. It's like, I. How is this a thing? Because I don't think you cared about it, but I guess you do, right? [00:38:56] Speaker A: It's bizarre to me. And I just think that there's. You try to leverage the opposite side of the spectrum. And I do think that there are a lot of people that are, whether they have ill intent or. I tend to believe that it's just a lot more misinformation than anything else of people in your ear that don't necessarily know what this whole thing kind of looks like. And you know, look, it's great to get drafted, it's great to play pro ball, but I mean, the draft is 20 rounds. Do you know how good you have to be to be drafted? [00:39:34] Speaker C: No doubt. [00:39:35] Speaker A: It's. It's 20 rounds and they can draft high school guys and juco guys. So like, you have to be an outlier to begin with. It doesn't really matter. Like, you know, if you want to argue with me that like transferring from, you know, Binghamton to Florida takes you from being an eighth rounder to a first rounder and like, that's a substantial amount of money. Like, okay, I could probably get behind that a little bit, but like you were still good enough to get drafted and like, you know, really all that means is you're going to get a couple more shots being a first rounder than you would an eighth rounder. [00:40:15] Speaker C: Right. [00:40:16] Speaker A: But you know, I don't, you know, and when you opt into the big leagues or into pro ball, like, I don't know if anyone knows this, but you're also going against the best in the world. Like just because you got drafted here in the 20 rounds. Like we're signing 14 year old Dominicans that are like 94 to 96 and you know, dudes out of Puerto Rico and guys out of like Mexico, like Japan. Like, we're like, this is a global game. And it. You still like, you're going up against guys that you've never even thought that you had to go up against. And to leverage it, I guess, to bring it full circle, like, to leverage it for what, to your point, like a couple extra $100,000. Like the, the, the chances of you making it to the show is infinitesimal. So like, you know, I, I would rather develop where I'm at, have really good friends and a great Experience in college and try to be really good at baseball and see where that gets me. Yeah, I mean, and that's just me. Like, I, I, I'm, you know, I, I don't know if I can speak, you know, I don't speak for everyone, obviously, but for me, like, that's what I, that's what I did. That's what I wanted. And, you know, I don't know if I could have thrived as a student athlete in this environment. Not that I was good enough. [00:41:37] Speaker C: No. But look at you, man. You found your calling. You're great now. [00:41:41] Speaker A: You know what I mean? [00:41:42] Speaker B: Other than that guy went into the portal and nobody gave me an offer. [00:41:45] Speaker A: Yeah, that would be me. Be like, I'm leaving here, I'm going to. The grass is greener, and then I'm stuck in the portal by myself. [00:41:52] Speaker C: That's right. I went in the portal this year, too. [00:41:54] Speaker A: Nobody took me, nobody likes me. It's even more demoralizing than telling them I was leaving. [00:42:01] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think we've, I think we've exhausted the, the portal stuff. [00:42:07] Speaker C: Me too. Yeah. Let's never talk about it again. [00:42:10] Speaker B: No, I think, but, you know, to kind of close it up, like, I think it's an important thing that. [00:42:18] Speaker C: At. [00:42:18] Speaker A: Least it gives some people some stuff. [00:42:20] Speaker B: To think about because, yeah, we find a lot of people use it as an excuse as to why they're not getting recruited. And, you know, other people look at it as a leverage point. Like, there's all different perspectives that you can have on it, but it exists. Everybody's entitled to their opinion on, on how it works. And depending on where you sit, your. [00:42:41] Speaker A: Viewpoint is going to be different. [00:42:43] Speaker B: You know, your viewpoint is going to be way different than the high school coach whose kid might be impacted from a recruiting perspective on the transfer portal, or, you know, the, the kid who is able to go in and get 250 grand from an SEC school to go play. Like, everybody's gonna have a different opinion, but it exists. It's impacting things. And, you know, it's refreshing to hear someone like yourself talk about, like, you know, it's still, it still starts with high school guys and, like, those guys are allowed to be good. And Yeah, I think, I think a lot of people, when you really, when you really poke on it, if you want to have a program that's sustainable, I, I think most guys would tell you, like, it's got to kind of start with the high school guys because the culture setting, like, if you're swapping out a Bunch of transfers every single year. Like, you're building teams. You're not building a program. Like, you've worked your ass off at ETSU for. For the last eight years to establish the culture that you talked about at the beginning, where guys know what the standard is. Like, that doesn't happen by accident. That doesn't happen in one year just because you put it up on a whiteboard and say, here are the rules. Like, that happens because your seniors have been there with you, and they know that that's the standard. So when that freshman comes in, they're introduced to, this is how we do things. And I think that's how. I would imagine that. That how Coach Sank had as much success. And it's something that you. You grew up as a coach, learning from him for 11 years at Stony Brook. And, you know, you talked about how you tried to bring that into your program. And I find it hard to believe that programs are going to be sustainable by bringing in 12, 15, 18 transfers every year. But, yeah, I'm sure you can run into some stuff, like, if you get enough really, really talented kids in one spot, like, yeah, you're probably gonna be pretty good. But sustainability, being able to compete year in and year out, I don't think that happens by accident. And I think it's hard to do it with a bunch of guys who are showing up for one specific reason. Like, guys who show up as freshmen in Johnson City, like, they want to be there. They're. They want to play for you and Coach Pins and Chad. And I think that that moves the needle, ultimately is. And I think that high school kids should view it that way, too. Like, don't. Don't make a commitment to a place with the idea that that's a stepping stone. Because if you're one foot in and you're one foot out, you're not going to be stepping anywhere. [00:45:24] Speaker C: No. And it's. You're not going to be as good enough. You're not going to be the best player that you can be. You're not. Just because it's. It's tough. This game's too hard. It's too humbling to not be all in. I mean, it's just too challenging for that. So. Yeah, I. I totally agree. I think. And that. That's, you know, like, I. I look at it like, you know, this year, you know, a week of practice, a week in a day, I guess, of practice. And, you know, like, I see some of our freshmen, and I think they're some good players. I think there's some skilled players. Now, where does that all shake out? I don't know, but it's like, I think that they're skilled players and they're good players, and they're going to compete and they're going to push those other guys, man, they're going to push those older guys to be like, shoot, like, I. I can't settle here. I gotta. I gotta get ready. And I think that competition's important. And the, The. The older guy, I think, is helping that younger guy understand, like, hey, you know what? Like, when. This is how we communicate. When the fly ball communicate, you know, this is how. And we let our guys kind of sort of figure that out naturally and figure it out. And it's interesting to see, like, what older guy will jump up and say something, you know, or what, organize. What group will be organized by a different guy. And some of that stuff's kind of fun to watch. And you can sort of see, you know, a couple guys that left our program last year with graduation or the draft to see these older guys kind of step in and be like, hey, man, this guy's right on my tail. Like, I gotta. I gotta get after it. But at the same time, like, hey, man, this is how we do our bands, and, hey, this is how we're gonna go about our business when we're doing our throwing program, whatever else. So it's been fun to watch the last week or so because it's been different because it's new guys, but it's been fun. And I think, like, you know, we have the right staff and, and the right players that just kind of getting it going. But it definitely has taken some time. And, you know, it's. It's a never. It's a. It's a constantly moving target, building the right atmosphere and sustaining. It is a moving target. [00:47:15] Speaker B: It's. College baseball's got such an interesting dynamic when you. When you kind of look at it the way you're talking about where you got guys that are competing for jobs and like, how you perform in the fall, like, if you're a freshman, that's your. That's your introduction to college baseball. Like, that's what you have when you get to the spring. That's what you have to go off of when you're making decisions on a lineup. Those kids don't have the luxury of like, well, hey, man, he hit.330 last year with 10 pumps. Like, that dude gets some rope, like, he's going to be in the lineup, he's going to Get a chance to fail a little bit. Like, when you're a freshman, like, you kind of got to come out guns blazing and prove like, I belong here. But at the same time, that same group of dudes needs to figure out a way to pull all in the same direction while also being competitive enough to where I'm going to beat you out, but I'm also going to help you. [00:48:12] Speaker C: Yeah, it's, it's. [00:48:14] Speaker B: It was a change for me as a player and it was a cool thing, specifically when I was at William and Mary because we had a pretty special older group when I first stepped in there in 14. And it's, it's interesting to see that dynamic play out of, like an ultra competitive environment. But the awareness that, like, I also need you because if we're going to win games, like, I need you to be good, but I also don't want you to take my spot. [00:48:41] Speaker C: Right. [00:48:42] Speaker B: It's, it's, it's pretty cool. [00:48:44] Speaker C: It is cool. Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's. And it's. There's some specialness to that, as you see it kind of develops stuff. Definitely. What. [00:48:53] Speaker B: So talking about, like, freshmen getting on campus and everything, what do you think are some of the bigger challenges that those guys have when they're transitioning from high school baseball to college? [00:49:11] Speaker C: I think the p. Just the life, once they get through the, the routine. Right. The life stuff, once they realize, like, you know, I'm on my own, I can kind of essentially do whatever I want whenever I want. But at the same time, man, that was a bad decision, you know, because I wasn't ready to play that day or I missed this or I missed that. Like, I think, I think the life part of it is probably the biggest challenge with some of those younger guys. Right. Like, just. We talked about that earlier. I think just them adapting and once that, once their feet settle in, I think you can really see when they get comfortable, the kind of player that they are, you know. And, you know, I think just some of the, like the on field stuff. I don't know if we want to talk about that, but like, you know, the on field stuff, I think it's just kind of understanding what they can get away with and what they couldn't. You know, like what breaking ball might get a swing and miss at that, you know, high school level and, and, and what doesn't now, or how far ball gets hit when you make a mistake here and how far it didn't there. Right. Or, you know, and offensively, some of the same Stuff, you know, like, understanding. Like, you're probably not covering, you know, both parts of the plate. Like, you know, probably, you know, if this guy's really good, like, you know, that that's not happening. That might happen, or whatever your. You know, whatever your perspective is or the situation is. But, you know, I think. And the defensive side, it's just what you can get away with and be consistent every day, you know, because, like, you throw more, you play more, you're doing things more. It's like, well, that's why we have this throwing program. That's why we're putting you through this. That's why we're doing those things. Because, like, we're expected to do this every day. And I think that's probably a part of it that, you know. And you guys remember this, like, those freshmen that kind of, like, they hit that little peak, and then, you know, they're freshmen. You're couldn't be on either side of it. But I think, because they run into it a little bit, you know, because it's just different. You know, they. They played last summ, and then they played in the fall, and then they might have played this summer, and then they're back at it again. And the. The. The weight program is different, and they're. They're sore, and they're getting. You know, like, those are all the little things. But most of them, I. To. To my experience, especially, you know, since. And even at Stony Brook, since I've been here, like, the guys that come out on the other side are the guys that just put their head down and work. You know, they work, they ask questions, they continue to. To do extra work. And it's. And it's awesome. That's awesome to see. And that. Those are the things. But those are, like, the little challenges that I see. But I. I think those challenges are awesome because, like, those challenges are like the springboard to you getting better, right? And that's. That's the coolest part about it. You know, it's like those are the. Those are the pieces of it that it's like, man, like, I see there's a senior on our team this year who was ineligible as freshman year. We were talking about him today, and, like, the maturity that I've seen from him five years ago to right now, it's, like, crazy. You know? It's crazy. And I think that's the neat part about seeing that, you know? But those are all the little bumps on the road that those guys have. And it's, like, the advice that I have. For any young guy that is going into school, it's like, truly enjoy what the awkwardness and fun and excitement that's happening right in front of you. Like, just try to enjoy the hell out of it. Because, like, it. You can only do it one time. It doesn't matter how many programs you go to and all the nonsense that's going on and all that stuff. Like, you really only have one time to do that. And I think, like, the growth that you have with it is, like, really what's so cool. [00:52:47] Speaker B: Yeah, watching. Honestly, that's probably the thing that I miss the most about coaching is, you know, the games are fun. You know, for me, the games is about the guys, like, make sure they're prepared, giving the information they need, try not to get in the way of them performing well. But I think the watching kids, like, figure it out. Watching them fall and helping them get back up and, you know, like, you're talking about the kid who's ineligible, and now you're seeing a completely different kid. Like, that's the stuff that. That shows up that doesn't get talked about enough because we're, you know, we're looking at stat lines and wins and losses and, like, yeah, all that stuff really matters. Like, you got to win games, right? Like, you don't have a job if you don't keep winning. But watching kids figure stuff out, grow up, mature, become better communicators, become better people, more thoughtful, more accountable, that's the stuff that. That they ultimately learn on that baseball field. And it's. It's pretty rewarding on the back end of it. And, like, you've been doing this long enough. Like, you've watched a lot of guys do a lot of really cool stuff. Like, that's the. That's probably the thing that I miss the most. And, you know, watching guys kind of figure it out, you know, like freshman year, watching the kid, like, because it's inevitable it's gonna happen. Watching the kid who, you know, has got the really good arm and he comes in and the junior who's got 500 college at bats and it's probably going to be a draft guy launches what that kid thinks is his best breaking ball, and, like, you kind of giggle like, all right, let's. Okay. Nobody's ever done that to you before. Like, what. What are you going to do with that now? Right? And. [00:54:29] Speaker C: As. And the funk. The cool part about it, too, and I think this is, like, taking it a step further, but, like, the. The freshmen that have success to seeing what that sophomore year looks like. And to me, like, that's the biggest difference between, like, elite dudes and guys that just kind of end up being good players. Like, that step is so critical because it's like, your freshman. You don't know any different. Like, I don't know. I guess I'm supposed to hit.370 with these. I don't know any different. Right. Like, I've never, like. And then it's like, when you have that expectation, you're like, holy crap. Like, nobody's. I haven't failed yet. And to see some of those guys. And we've, you know, obviously, we've all had those guys, too, but, like, that. That's, like, the springboard to see and. And how they can kind of go through that. And. And it's pretty cool to watch that because then you start to see those dudes that turn to be, you know, really good players and elite type of dudes that, you know, are either still playing or maybe if they're not draft guys. There's really good college baseball players. But it's interesting because, like, you know, and, hell, we could talk about that kind of stuff forever. But it's kind of fun to see that. [00:55:32] Speaker A: I do think anecdotally, too, like, those guys, that guy that you just described that was really good as a freshman and then figures it out and becomes, like, that elite player, whether or not they play professionally, like, those guys tend to be pretty successful early on in their professional careers. Well, not from a baseball standpoint. Like, when they go have a real job, they tend to be pretty successful a little bit faster because it's like they. They have that work ethic. They have that drive they have that they have, like, not the it factor, but, like, they do. They go about it differently. And, like, we've been around the game long enough to all. Like, we've all seen it, but, like, you. Like, that part is the fun part of, like, seeing that kid as a freshman or a sophomore. And then they make that jump, the proverbial jump that we're always asking when they're gonna make, and they make it, and then all of a sudden, you see how much better they get. And it's like, it's fun to watch from the outside of. Like, they're realizing how good they can get of, like, wow, this is. I'm a lot better at this than I even kind of thought I was. And that, like, that part's really fun. Like, Jared Jensen, Andy was one of them, like, watching him, like, sophomore year into Senior year was just so fun to watch. Like, he went from a borderline all conference player to an all American and pitched and hit and you know, I, I probably should have won pitcher of the year, but due to pitch in the big leagues, was pitcher of the year and then he hit like 420. [00:57:02] Speaker B: Now he's a Top Gun pilot. [00:57:04] Speaker A: Now he's a Top Gun pilot. That was kind of my, what I was driving out there. But you know, like, some of those guys, like, they're like, they're different dudes and I like, that is like, I love that part. I loved that part of coaching. Like, that was so fun to like to see that part of it and, and I think like that, you know, being a part of it, right? And I, I think that that's where some people get lost. Like, you're not the reason, but you play a small role in that kid's development of, of being able to, to become the best version of himself. Which is what I think. Like, ultimately as coaches, we all want, like, you know, if I can be a small part of you becoming a better person, a better baseball player, then I think I've succeeded at my, at my job. [00:57:48] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. And I think like, that's the, you know, and it's just the day to day stuff that you see. Like, you know, some of my favorite parts of the day are just like when guys are throwing, just walking around BSing with them and yeah. Kind of seeing how they're going about their stuff and talking to them about little things, but then maybe making fun of them a little bit. And like, I think like, you see that, that just kind of how those relationships build and like, that stuff's so special, man. And, and to see those guys that, you know, like you said, make a jump but still have a fun personality and you have such a good relationship with like, I mean, truly, that's the reason that I used to talk to. [00:58:21] Speaker A: Guys during throwing with like, they would be in thermals and dynamics. I'm like, yeah, I don't even know what, like, what it's like, you know, I want to send a satellite out in space that rejects UV rays to stay longer. I'm like, dude, I've never thought about that once in my Life. In my 36 years of being on this planet, I've never once thought of that, let alone like. And then I think back to when I was in college. I was like, yo, I wasn't thinking about that when I was 20 years old. I didn't, didn't even think about it at 36, 20, no shot. [00:58:56] Speaker C: Oh, man. [00:58:57] Speaker A: What's going on in mad hats on this Thursday night? [00:59:00] Speaker C: That's awesome. Yeah, exactly. Oh, there's plenty of that going on. That's happened. That's happening. That's funny. [00:59:12] Speaker B: All right, closing question. Your infinite knowledge. If you could impart some wisdom on families and players who are going to or are currently involved in the college recruiting process. What. What advice or bits of knowledge would you like to pass on to the listeners? [00:59:40] Speaker C: I do believe that I've always said this. I've said this for years, that you should show interest, where people show interest in you. I think, like, you know, if. If. Because you just never know. And. And this. That's a very broad comment. And some of the interest might be lower or higher or whatever the kind of player you are. I get all that, but, like, I. I think even if it's a response to a text, if it's a response to an email, if it's response to a call, I think there's some value to that because you just never know. You never know. Like, you know, the level that you think that you should be at and where, you know, you probably end up, right? Or not even that, but it could be the best fit for you. It could be the best situation. Like, you might go to that place, never thinking, it's great. And you fall in love with the coaching staff, and you fall in love with the school, and you're like, man, I'm so glad that I responded to that. I think that's so important. And I don't. I've been saying that for years, and I don't know that it always gets across, but I do think there's. There's a lot of importance to that. And then I. I also think, you know, if you have somebody that is. Because everybody loves their kid, right? And we all have a different perspective of our kid, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. If you coached. It doesn't matter. It doesn't. None of it matters. Your perspective of your own kid is different, you know, my nuts. But it is. If you have a trusted person that you can actually talk to that's in this game, you know, like yourself and like your guys, you know, to be like, you know, hey, what? You know, this is the. The region of the country he's looking at. These are the schools that he's thinking, give me your perspective. And I think, like, that can really help you guide your. Guide you in the right direction. Because if it's all like high end sec, acc, whatever division, and it's like, well, I don't see that happening for you, you know, or if it's all like, you know, mid majors and it's like, I don't know if that's gonna happen for you, but we can try, you know, or if it's, you know, I, I think that can help you not have the. What the muddy, the water's muddied as much as they can be in this process, you know, And I think once you've narrowed that down to some degree and you can find somebody that you trust and you can do that, I think, I think school camps are important, and I think they're more important now than ever. We, we have gotten at least two kids out of our camps since I've been here, and that's a lot, if you think about it, like, at least two. And some of them have been really good players. Like, some of them were the pitcher of the year at time or an all conference guy. Like, like, I think there's value to that. But again, I get it. You can't go to every single camp that, that's out there. But if you have a trusted person that can kind of guide you in the direction of, you know what I think, you know, Coach Pinzino is awesome. I think it would be a good fit for you. I know the rest of the staff go to the camp. I think let's, let's see what they think of you, you know, and I think there's value to that. But the biggest part of that is the truth. And the, the truth that you're going to hear that you might not want to hear. And I think that's the hardest part. I really do. But, you know, the last thing is, is, I mean, especially as young guys and as freshmen, like, you know, understand that through this whole madness and all this crap, like, you're still allowed to be good players and you're still allowed to potentially play at the Division 1 level. And I can say that because we've had guys do it and we've had the freshman player of the year, 12 conference guys to whatever. And I think some of those guys get discouraged with that. The timeline might not be what you want, but who cares about the timeline if it's the right place? [01:03:32] Speaker A: Now there's a lot of truth in it. Like, I think a lot of people always ask the question of, like, well, do you play freshman? Like, and I, I would be. I, I was always like, you know, because we had the freshman of the year a handful of times when I was at rpi. Like, you can go, look, man, like, we've had the freshman of the year. Like, if you're going to help us win, you're going to be on the field. You have to use, obviously, but like, we're going to develop you and we're going to put you out there, you know. But I, I think you're dead right too about that. And I'm glad you, you mentioned cams. And it's funny I didn't say it at the start before we, we did the pre show stuff could, because everyone always has a different answer to this question. This is like our 65th interview and I don't think we've had one repeat answer to it. And I don't think everyone's going through and listening to them. Right. Like, well, I don't think. I know no one's listening to them. But my point is like, Andy and I love the on campus thing and we have a lot of our clients go to it and do those things for a lot of the same reasons that you mentioned. But I think there's a misnomer out there that like a lot of on campus camps are money grabs. It's like some, sure. But the vast majority of them are not. Like, you can tell, especially from a pricing standpoint, if it's $120, like, they're not making a lot of money on this camp. So like, what they're really driving at is guys that they're interested in. Guys that might be interested in their school. Excuse me, that they haven't seen yet. And a lot of schools utilize the on campus camp because you can, you get to know the kid better, you get to coach him a little bit. Your kids get to meet that. Like the majority, I shouldn't say everyone, but the majority of camps probably have players working their camp. You can get a lot more information about that kid. And it goes back to the peeling the layer of the onion of like, how is this kid going to be a good fit for us because he might come to camp. And it goes both ways. And we talk about this with our clients too. Like, it goes both ways. You could walk into that camp and be like, I don't really know and walk out of there being like, I love Coach Panucci, I love Coach Manzino. Like, that's the place I want to go. Really hit it off for the kids. And the kids say the same thing. You think the same thing. [01:05:44] Speaker B: Awesome. [01:05:44] Speaker A: You could also walk away and be like, I don't know if that kid's going to make it here. And the kid might be like, yeah, I don't know if that's really going to be the right fit for me. Like, I don't know if I could really, you know, I didn't really feel the vibes were positive, as the kids say now with Coach Panucci, like, and that's fine. You'd rather spend the $100 to figure that out early on in the process or whenever it is, rather than show up and then after two weeks on campus be like, I made the wrong decision. This is not the place for me. And I think it's far better for kids to be able to kind of figure it out that way because it puts you in more of a natural setting for what you're going to be doing. And you can see, like, how do they coach? Is this something that I could really see myself doing for four years? And conversely for coaches, like, can I coach this kid for four years? Because you spend a lot of time, and we talked about it roundabout way, but like, you spend a lot of time with each other during the course of a college baseball season. Like, we're talking six days a week, we're traveling, you know, maybe not you guys so much anymore, but like, you know, when we were at Marist and Stony Brook, like the first four weeks of your season, like, you lived out of a bag. You're flying, you're taking 12, 13, 14 hour bus, bus rides. Like, you spend a lot of time with each other. And if you're not going to be able to coach that kid or really be able to do it, you ask yourself as a coach, like, is it going to be worth it? And I would rather know as a coach and as a player on both ends of it. Like, I'd rather know by going to an on campus camp and figuring out if this is the place for me. And I mean, let's face it, like, you can go on a visit or a tour too. Like, maybe the school isn't for you. Like, maybe the program is great, but maybe the school isn't for you. And you'd rather, like, you'd rather know that part early too, because yeah, the baseball end of it is great, but I don't think the schools for me, like, I, I just don't really. I didn't like campus. I didn't. Whatever it might be, like you'd rather know then, then later on we've, we've. [01:07:50] Speaker C: Had, by the way, my, my vibes Are awesome. [01:07:53] Speaker A: I know they are. That's why you're here. I. I'm not such good. [01:07:56] Speaker C: Anyone leaves, you can feel it through the screen. No, but the. I think, like, I think you're right on. I mean, we've had guys that have. That we've committed, who have been. We didn't know anything about. I had no idea who they were. They were coming. I didn't know they were showing up. Coach. Coaches didn't know they were showing up. Nothing. And it was like, who is that? You know, I don't know, defender, arm, whatever you might be. You know, arm works really well. That's interesting. And then we've had guys that. It's like, hey, we needed to get this guy on campus, or, hey, another one is. We've seen him a couple of times. Let's get them here. Like, there's so many different ways that we've gotten guys, and our camps have been really, really important for that. And I think, you know, it's. It's definitely valuable. But, you know, whoever you guys clients are, I mean, I think are fortunate because they got some good dudes, and I think they got guys that have been around it and I think are doing it for the right. Right reasons. So I think you guys are going to advise them the right way. [01:09:01] Speaker A: Appreciate it. I remember, like, was it Cole Hague? Was that the kid from North Dakota, Andy, at Columbia? Yeah, I remember he showed up at camp. I was working Columbia. Camp. Kohlhaag showed up at camp, and he's from North Dakota, shows up to New York City for camp. No one knows who he is. And I saw him standing in line, and then he comes, like, strolling in, shakes Coach Beretti's hand, goes to the dugout. And he changed. He put his camp shirt on. He looked like he was chiseled out of stone. No one knew who this kid was. And then proceeded to go out and run like a 65 and just hit 19 home runs. And it was like. But my point is, like, nobody knew who he was. And the kid ended up playing at Columbia and had a phenomenal career. Like, those things happen a lot more often than people think that they actually do. [01:09:54] Speaker C: They do. [01:09:55] Speaker A: You're better suited. I would argue, in a lot of instances, especially if it's an academic set or if it's an academic fit or, you know, whatever. Like, if it's a school that you really like, you're better off in that route than going to one of the bigger showcases, because you show up as a showcase with 300 kids, I mean, not to say you're just a number, but you have to do some outlier stuff to get people to pay attention to what it is that you're doing. [01:10:20] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:10:21] Speaker A: I've worked those camps. I have nothing but good things to say about them. But when you're on the field for 14 hours, like I'm, I thought I was good at my job, but like, I wasn't locked in for 14 hours. [01:10:32] Speaker C: I got done the same thing. [01:10:34] Speaker A: Other clowns sitting behind home plate with me telling stories about stuff that are absurd that I'm laughing about. [01:10:40] Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah. [01:10:41] Speaker A: It doesn't mean we're not paying attention for everyone out there. [01:10:44] Speaker C: No, no, no. I guess that's true. Yeah, there's, there's a ton of value to that, for sure. I think that, I think you're right on with that. [01:10:52] Speaker B: I'm trying to tie in the two points that you made because I think there's context and I think that in some ways they're tied together. Like with the camp thing, which Keith already elaborated on, like, they're super valuable. Having somebody who can point you in the right direction ensures that those camps aren't going to be money grabs for people. [01:11:12] Speaker C: Yes. [01:11:13] Speaker B: And like, that's important that if, if I talk to you or Coach Marshall or Pins and you guys get a read on a kid and you're like, hey, I, I like that kid. It's probably worth going to camp if we can get feedback and it's like, hey, we're not looking for that spot. Maybe you're not looking for a catcher or maybe, you know, you've, you're, you're not looking for corner outfielder. Well, maybe it won't be worth it. Right. Or like, hey, you're not an ACC player, so maybe going to, flying down to Tallahassee and going to Florida State's camp isn't going to be that fruitful, but maybe making a two hour drive to Fairfield's camp is going to be something that might actually move the needle for you. [01:11:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:11:58] Speaker B: And I think that, I think that that's important because if you go to the right places and you have good information, it doesn't mean you're going to get an offer, but you're in a place where if you go and play well, you're putting yourself in a position to get recruited as opposed to being one of those people who walks away from camp and goes, well, I was just a number on the field that day. Yeah, like, you should go to Columbia's camp if you've got a 3.3Gpa. [01:12:24] Speaker C: That's kind of why I, I led with that, the importance of, like, having somebody that you trust in the process. And, and it's hard for families that, that have that, you know, because, like, maybe their high school coach isn't that involved or, you know, their summer coach, you know, might not tell them the truth. You know, I think that that's probably happens sometimes, but. And sometimes the right ones certainly do. We know that. But I think that, that having the right people to. To lead, you know, is important. And like, another thing with the camps too is like, you know, we. We have jucos, we have division twos, we have some NAIs. Like, we have a pretty good variety of other coaches that go, you know, So I think you can kind of get, you know, there's plenty of guys that have gotten recruited out of our place just if. If it wasn't for us. So I think that's another piece of the camp puzzle that that is of value if other schools are going to be there, especially a variety of different levels, because, I mean, you gotta buffet coaches. You know what I mean? [01:13:26] Speaker A: Yeah, it was one piece that I forgot to mention. I'm glad you did that. A lot of the division ones will have more than just themselves there, so you get a little bit more bang for your buck. [01:13:37] Speaker C: Yep. [01:13:42] Speaker B: I think we've covered it all, guys. [01:13:44] Speaker C: Yeah, we have said it all. We've said it all. [01:13:47] Speaker B: No, this might be the last podcast, actually. So after this, we've covered it all. [01:13:57] Speaker C: Yeah, shut it down. Probably nothing else to learn. Glad I could have done that for you. [01:14:03] Speaker B: No, but, but seriously, thanks for coming on, Joe. Appreciate it, man. I know your, your time is valuable this time of year and you guys. [01:14:09] Speaker C: Are up and running, so that's cool. That was. It was fun. It was fun to chat with you guys. It's good. I enjoy talking to good baseball guys and, and it was nice to see you guys, obviously. Good to see you guys again. So you need anything else from me, let me know if I can help you or whatever. Keep me posted. Appreciate it. [01:14:27] Speaker B: Thank you for listening this week. If you're watching on YouTube, go ahead and hit that subscribe button and smash that like button for us. Check us out on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, as well as Spotify. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram MD Baseball. If you want to find out what me and Keith do to help families and players navigate the recruiting process, go ahead and check us out on emdbaseball.com take a few minutes to check out our new online academy. I promise you'll get some good information out of that. Thanks again for listening. Check in with you next week.